10/07/2012 20:40:32

Hi Thomasr,

I would like to address your questions one at a time. Remember, I am just an ordinary Joe and I don't speak for the Mormon Church, but I am willing to offer my opinion. Bear with me because these are not simple questions, but will take a few words to reply. I use the word reply, because that is all I can do. If you want an answer, that must come from the Holy Ghost. Only He can give an answer. However with the help of the Holy Ghost, my reply may help. When we consider these questions without asking God, in the name of Jesus Christ for His help in understanding, we inevitably fall short of the mark.

Question #1: "If the Bible mentions in 2 Peter 3:8 that Gods time of 1 day is a 1000 years to mans time how would that account for the dinosaurs, cavemen and the overall 4.2 billions years of the development of the earth in relation to the 7000 years of mans time in the creation story from the Bible?

Reply: Short version: The Bible does not talk about the physical creation of the earth. Everything that was created in the world, was created spiritually first. Genesis gives an account of the spiritual creation, which took seven "days". No account of the material, physical creation of the earth is given in the Bible.

Reply Comprehensive version: See Genesis 2:4-5. Deuteronomy 4:2 it says, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." A similar scripture is used to attack Mormon doctrine from Revelation 22:19. Both are true. Man is not permitted to add to or take away from God's word and laws. But God himself does. This is seen as immediately after Moses died Joshua started receiving revelations and giving commandments to Israel.

In the Latter days the Prophet Joseph Smith, under revelation from God answered your question when he added to the abbreviated account given in Genesis, that which was lost when evil Priests and Rabbis had removed some of the word of God.

The verse of Genesis 2:4-5 is rendered by Joseph Smith as follows:
(Moses 3:4-5)
4. And now, behold, I say unto you that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth.
5. And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air.

Joseph Smith explained that the earth was organized from preexisting matter according to the laws and will of God after more difficult and substantial creation of the earth in the Spirit world. The earth was prepared. He doesn't tell us how or for how long. Once it was prepared, he prepared a garden and placed Adam and Eve in it. Many problems arise throughout scripture by trying to determine what is literal and what is allegory. We Latter-day Saints have an advantage over other denominations. We have living prophets who receive revelation from God and authoritatively explain these things to us.


2) "Is it true that God the Father has a Dad and a Grandpa going back forever? "
Reply: Short version: Yes, but...
Reply: Comprehensive version: Wow- big big issue; this is the central issue as to why the Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter-day Saints) is attacked for not being Christian. This attack has very little to do with whether we Mormons actually do rely on the grace of Christ for our salvation, with all of our best efforts, our righteousness, being as filthy rags (Isaiah 46:6), which doctrine is central to our religion. No, it is another dispute that brings well meaning Christians to attack the Church of Jesus Christ!

This requires blunt honesty, so I am forced to point out the errors of modern Christians, (which I intensely dislike doing, because God loves and has deep compassion for all men, see Romans 8:35, 38-39). This is the very reason that God sent His true religion, the "times of refreshing", back to the earth as he promised. (Isaiah 29:13-16,18-21; Acts 3:19). Paul predicted very clearly that the time would come when the Christian church would not "...endure sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3)...) but would "...turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables (2 Timothy 4:4)... which would cause a "falling away" of the Church from the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 11-12). Paul revisited this prophesy many times over the years of his life and mourned deeply saying "For I know that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you not sparing the flock. And also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."(Acts 20:29-30).

The charge that Latter-day Saints are not Christian arises from the fact that we refuse to accept the apostate, Greek concept of a bodiless, incomprehensible God, which is central to the religion Christian denominations today! We believe, as the Bible insists that God has an actual body complete with face (Exodus 33:11,20), nose (Exodus 15:8), ears (2 Samuel 22:7,9), mouth (Numbers 12:8, 1 Kings 8:15), arms (Exodus 6:6, John 12:38) hands (Exodus 7:5; Exodus 15:6), back parts (Exodus 33:22-23), feet (1 Samuel 25:24), etc.

So our dispute comes from the simple fact that we Latter-day Saints actually, and uniquely believe the Bible! We don't just give it lip service as Isaiah prophesied would be done by modern Christian denominations. (Isaiah 29:13-16,18-21). These denominations, unknowingly, merely give their Greek philosophy a Christian veneer.

In one way or another most Christian denominations maintain that God is unknowable. Among the more ancient Orthodox and Catholics, they state this as a matter of unalterable creed while many Christian fundamentalists like to argue both sides of the question, depending on how they feel at the moment or which pastor is speaking. God's word however is that "...this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."(John 17:3). Not only is God Knowable, but we must understand and know him if we are to obtain eternal life, according to the Savior.

Modern Christian denominations have accepted the ancient Greek monotheistic concept of God and have thereby become entangled in the contradictions that this false philosophy brings. (Yes Greeks were monotheistic, read Plato, Aristotle, etc.)

The Greeks, and modern Christians have teachings in common that are in opposition to the Bible. These false teaching include that God always was God, one single being from eternity to all eternity, with such unconditional omnipotence God created, out of nothing, everything that exists, both the good and the evil. This brings the central question: What is the nature of God?

The paradox, the logical error that engulfed the Greeks and that engulfs modern Christians, excluding Mormons, is introduced by the important question: Where does evil come from? Why did God create evil if He could have created a perfect universe without it? If God casually permits evil or is in some other way is the author of evil, how can He not be evil himself? As the Savior taught, "Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.... Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:16-20)

It is the rankest form of blasphemy to attribute evil to God, for when we do, we say God is evil. Read carefully Paul's defense of the righteousness of God contained in Romans 3:4-6. Greek philosophy tainted Christianity must answer the Greek paradox which it has adopted. These are horrible, incomprehensible questions: If God loves us, why does he permit evil when He could have prevented it? Why did He create hell? Is it actually His will that people suffer in Hell for all eternity? Why did he create the devil, demons and hell? Remember, the Greeks and their philosophical offspring, modern, apostate Christianity maintain God created everything that is and has power to do anything He wants, in any way! The true Church of Jesus Christ says the opposite. God neither created these things nor is He responsible for evil. However, He understands it and uses it for his purposes as He obey the laws that predate and have ascendancy over Him. Men create hell themselves when they choose to separate themselves from God and His creations. The lake of fire and brimstone is figurative only. It represents an existence that is absent God and all of his blessings and works. All evil arises when God's children rebel against him because of the absolute right he gives them to choose freely for themselves good or evil.

Now, in contradiction to the concept that God did not create or is responsible for evil, some might want to quote Amos 3:6 "Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?" or a similar scripture in Isaiah 46:7. However, these are to be understood that God allows, evil, and uses even evil to bring about his immutable purposes. This is just as we observe in the world. As Christ said, "... for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe unto that man by whom the offence cometh."(Mathew 18:7) However, as the Book of Mormon explains "For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil." (Alma 5:40, see also Moroni 7:12; Psalms 34:8)

Modern Greek/Christian doctrines also violate the glory and praise that belong to God. To them the phrase, "Holiness to the Lord" that will be written on the Temple, the pots and even the bells of the horses in the redeemed Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21) is a ribald mockery. As one person wrote (I believe it was Leibnitz): If we say that God is Holy and Praiseworthy for doing what he does, and we also say that He would be equally praiseworthy and Holy if He would do the exact opposite, then we are saying nothing good about God. We are saying that he exercises the power of a great bully, that can do whatever He wants, and would be equally praiseworthy even if He chose to do the exact opposite. This also violate the omnipotence of God, removing from him the most basic power that all of His children have: to choose between good and evil.

In this context, saying Holiness, goodness or praise to the Lord is meaningless. If however, we say that God is Holy, Good, Just and praiseworthy because He perfectly and throughout eternity obeys laws, then we are indeed praising God. For having the ability to be evil, He chooses to be perfectly good. In the Greek/Christian concept of unlimited unfettered omnipotence, God could not be omnipotent. He would not have the power to be evil since is defined as doing that which is contrary to God's laws and will.

When God obtained the ability to choose to be good or evil himself, we also admit that there was something before and above God. What is higher than God: it is law and the One who gave it... his Father, God. But where did the law come from if God is the author of law? This is where a profound understanding of the nature of eternity comes into play. In Mormon doctrine, we say that there is an eternal generation of Gods, but unto us there is only one Father and one God.

At this point we come to the foundation, which all philosophy, scientific theory and mankind must eventually address: the concept of infinity. Even the Great Bang theory has to answer the demands of infinity, What existed before their big bang concept of the universe began and how long did it exist?

The Greek concept, adopted wholesale by the modern Christians is that God exists outside of time, has always existed in His current state and nature and will always be the same. In their concept of infinity, they believe God is completely stagnant, the same forever, and has unconditional omnipotence. They maintain that He created, as a capricious act, (for unfettered omnipotence outside of any law defines no imperatives or higher goals), out of nothing everything that exists, including evil.

Opposing this notion, almost alone, the Latter-day Saints, the Church of Jesus Christ, assert that God obeys and is subject to law. (D&C 88:13,34-39; Alma 42:22-25) To understand how God can be unchangeable, omnipotent and still obeys laws we need to take a critical look at the Jewish interpretation of the Torah from the Hebrew and the concept of polytheism.

Just as the most Christian denominations have incorporated the concepts of the Greeks into their religion, so Judaism has incorporated pagan philosophy of Babylon and Sumeria into their religion. Just as Vespasian and Titus transformed Christianity when they destroyed the Jewish Christians at the time of the Jewish rebellion in AD 70, so Nebuchadnezzer transformed Judaism by destroying Solomon's temple in 587 B.C. and removing the Jewish population to Babylon for 70 years.

Here we see the two great divisions of practice and belief among the Jews. The Jews that honor the Torah and those that incorporate the Talmud into their practice and belief system. Most Rabbis will explain that when Moses came down from the Holy Mount after speaking with God he left the council of 70 elders, the Sanhedrin, at the foot of the mount. These were not permitted to speak to God, face to face, as was Moses. (Exodus 33:11).

However, Moses, according to Talmud believing Jews brought two Torahs down: the written Torah and the oral Torah. When the Jews lost their temple and were held captive in a grossly immoral culture of Babylon, they had to rely on a new class of clergy for guidance- the scribes. These are the true authors of the Talmud and the much of the doctrine of non-biblical traditions they embraced actually come from Babylon. This oral Torah, among most Jews has precedence and was finally relegated to written form during the middle ages and became what we now call the Talmud.

This is relevant to our discussion because of the holiest of Jewish tenants is this: Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God the Lord is One. (Deuteronomy 6:4). This verse, which is known as Sh'ma Yisrael, for observant Jews is central to Jewish prayer services and family devotions. It incorporates the very essence of Jewish monotheism. Therein lies the rub. For the literal translation of the verse is, considering the word for God is Elohim, or more precisely Eloheinu is plural. This renders an actual, literal translation of Sh'ma Yisrael to: Hear or Israel, the Lords our God the Lords are One.

One Rabbi infected with the false Talmudic tradition was asked why the Jews always translate the word Elohim as God, singular, when it is clearly a plural form of the word for God, Eloi. He replied, as do Jews who honor the Talmud, that to do otherwise would destroy Jewish doctrine. Literal translations of the Holy Torah would be unthinkable. Indeed, most of the Book of Genesis would have the word God rendered as "the Gods". (see the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price.)

Well, a literal translation might destroy the Talmudic tradition, but it respects what is actually written in the Torah independent of the modifications that emanate from the Talmud. It is this doctrine, translation and concept that the Bible teaches, that Mormons believe and that most Jews and Christians reject.

Our doctrine is that as God Once was, man now is, and as God now is, man may become.

John said it best;
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God; therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that , when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This is precisely the Mormon concept of monotheism. "Hear or Israel, the Lords our God the Lords are One." (Sh'ma Yisrael).

As the Savior prayed to the Father (a proof of the polytheistic nature of God by the way, because it would be silly to say that an omnipotent God would pray to Himself): "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."(John 17:11)

So the Bible teaches that the Godhead consists of three separate persons that are one in purpose, one in execution, one in doctrine and completely united in their dealings with humanity and nature. There is no conflict or difference between them and there never could be since they are all perfectly subject to the same laws. They are truly One. And the prayer of the Savior is that we may become one as God is One!

The notion that God the Father had a Father is new, revealed doctrine given by a Latter-day prophet, Joseph Smith. Reflect for a moment on the notion given in the Bible that there would be more and new prophets in Latter days. (Revelation 11:3-11; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28)

Is it conceivable that a prophet would come and not explain new doctrine from the Lord? Does the Lord put old wine in new bottles? (Luke 5:36-39).

Question #2) Is it true that God the Father was a savior in the last universe like Jesus is in this Universe?
Reply: This is not Mormon doctrine. Being a convert of over 40 years I have never heard this doctrine taught, expressed or believed by anyone in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you heard it, you heard it from virulent anti-Mormons.

We Mormons are a bit weary by the endless attacks on us for doctrines and beliefs that others say we have, but which form no part of our religion. They will sometimes cite documents from the 19th century as evidence for this.

There has been so much fraud and alterations of documents and records attributed to courts, journals and dusty records kept in the custody of some individual dating from the pioneer era. This makes it difficult to for any fair minded, non-partisan observer to believe that anything that does not align with what we are taught today.

I remember when the cover of Time magazine ridiculed the Mormon Church for believing that Latter-day revelations were given by a salamander. The document was later proven to be a rank forgery, and it's author a callous murderer. I never believed this non-sense. It was never taught in the church and it was never a part of our doctrine.

This has happened time and again. I have even seen people born and raised in Mormon Church whose faith was shaken because some bigot had told them that the Church believes something other than what they had been taught their whole lives, and which no one in the Church actually believes.

My feelings on this and similar exposé's are :"I am a Mormon. Don't tell me what I believe. I know what I believe. And I will extend you the same courtesy."

No, we don't believe and we do not teach that God the Father was a Savior in some other universe, and I know what my church believes and teaches!

10/07/2012 16:42:14

all these are good, and by your searching for these things-you have spent a great deal of time learn of this church. i would just encourage you to do as these other comments have suggested, i dont know why i am sharing this next part, but i think its applicable.
we know that jesus walked with us...taught us how to love, how to be a better friend. if he didn't want us to know these things he wouldnt give us the ample advice and care he did. do as these others have done and you will find your answers!

10/07/2012 13:40:47

Missionary Mom's answer is a good one. Your questions seem like you took the most sensational sounding ideas from people speaking beyond the doctrine of the church. Those are things we do not know about. We have no doctrine on those subjects.

If you want to know about LDS doctrines, contact the missionaries, read the Book of Mormon, Bible, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. If you have questions, the missionaries are a great source. The important doctrines are the ones that relate to your life and your relationship to your Savior, Jesus Christ. That is what you should focus on.

10/06/2012 21:30:34

Hello,

First, I would like to refer you to four places on the internet. First www.mormon.org, missionaries answer many questions for people searching for answers on that website. My daughter is one of them. She and many other Missionaries also answer questions on facebook while they serve their full time missions. You can also search for information from LDS.Org and lastly, a place I enjoy going to is www.Donny.com. Sounds funny, but the Osmond family are very good resources for questions to relating to LDS beliefs. However, before you do any research, I invite you to fast and pray earnestly.

You say you have been questioning friends for two years and still have questions. May I ask, have you read the Book of Mormon? The Doctrine & Covenants? Or the Pearl of Great Price? Have you asked in earnest prayer if the things you read are true? Have you read any of the many, many other books that have been written by modern day Prophets & Apostles? Have you talked with the Missionaries? If not, why? You can ask questions to people and they can answer, however unless you research it out, you might not believe their answers. Most people don't do these things for fear of discovering the truth and they don't really want to know the truth, they just want to argue.

You mentioned 2nd Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day". Therefore we have only been gone from his presence for a minuscule of time, yet to us it seems like forever.

This scripture means that time in the Eternities is calculated differently then it is here on Earth. When the scriptures talk about the Earth being created in 6 days, it is referring to Heavens time. In Earths time it took 6000 years, I believe that the dinosaurs helped to form some of the hills and valleys we see on the Earth today.

There is nothing that I know of that ever references Whether God the Father was a Savior in any universe. The scriptures only tell us that he lives and their are eye witnesses to that fact. There are many, many things we do not know because those things have not been revealed to us. God will reveal them in his time as they are needed and who are we to question when, why or how?

It always sounds funny to me when people refer to cavemen. The scriptures tell us that we were made in God's image, that we are his children. Do you really think that God looked and acted like a caveman? If he has the ability to create something so wondrous and Intelligent as a human being, why would he start them out looking and acting like animals? I would like to invite you to read the account of the creation of man from the scriptures if you have not done so already. I would also like to invite you to read this same account from the Joseph Smith Translation as found in the back of the Book of Mormon.

I hope this helps in some way.