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Testimony: What is it?
Posted On 06/25/2008 18:06:07 by PapilioMemnon

What is a testimony of the Restored Gospel? How do I gain a testimony? Is it important that I gain a testimony

A testimony is a declaration or statement of something a person witnesses or affirms; it's evidence that supports something.

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Testimony - Elder Dallin H. Oaks - http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-10,00.html (Emphasis added)

"A testimony of the gospel is a personal witness borne to our souls by the Holy Ghost that certain facts of eternal significance are true and that we know them to be true. Such facts include the nature of the Godhead and our relationship to its three members, the effectiveness of the Atonement, and the reality of the Restoration.

A testimony of the gospel is not a travelogue, a health log, or an expression of love for family members. It is not a sermon. President Kimball taught that the moment we begin preaching to others, our testimony is ended.1

What do we mean when we testify and say that we know the gospel is true? Contrast that kind of knowledge with “I know it is cold outside” or “I know I love my wife.” These are three different kinds of knowledge, each learned in a different way. Knowledge of outside temperature can be verified by scientific proof. Knowledge that we love our spouse is personal and subjective. While not capable of scientific proof, it is still important. The idea that all important knowledge is based on scientific evidence is simply untrue.

While there are some “evidences” for gospel truths (for example, see Psalm 19:1; Helaman 8:24), scientific methods will not yield spiritual knowledge. This is what Jesus taught in response to Simon Peter’s testimony that He was the Christ: “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). The Apostle Paul explained this. In a letter to the Corinthian Saints, he said, “The things of God knoweth no man, but [by] the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:11; see also John 14:17).

In contrast, we know the things of man by the ways of man, but “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14).

The Book of Mormon teaches that God will manifest the truth of spiritual things unto us by the power of the Holy Ghost (see Moroni 10:4–5). In modern revelation God promises us that we will receive “knowledge” by His telling us in our mind and in our heart “by the Holy Ghost” (D&C 8:1–2).

One of the greatest things about our Heavenly Father’s plan for His children is that each of us can know the truth of that plan for ourselves. That revealed knowledge does not come from books, from scientific proof, or from intellectual pondering. As with the Apostle Peter, we can receive that knowledge directly from our Heavenly Father through the witness of the Holy Ghost.

When we know spiritual truths by spiritual means, we can be just as sure of that knowledge as scholars and scientists are of the different kinds of knowledge they have acquired by different methods.

The Prophet Joseph Smith provided a wonderful example of this. When he was persecuted for telling people about his vision, he likened his circumstance to the Apostle Paul, who was ridiculed and reviled as he made his defense before King Agrippa (see Acts 26). “But all this did not destroy the reality of his vision,” Joseph said. “He had seen a vision, he knew he had, and all the persecution under heaven could not make it otherwise. . . . So it was with me,” Joseph continued. “I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me. . . . I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I” (Joseph Smith—History 1:24–25).

III.

That was Joseph Smith’s testimony. What about ours? How can we come to know and testify that what he said was true? How does one gain what we call a testimony?

The first step in gaining any kind of knowledge is to really desire to know. In the case of spiritual knowledge, the next step is to ask God in sincere prayer. As we read in modern revelation,

“If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal” (D&C 42:61).

Here is what Alma wrote about what he did: “Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit” (Alma 5:46).

As we desire and seek, we should remember that acquiring a testimony is not a passive thing but a process in which we are expected to do something. Jesus taught, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself” (John 7:17).

Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.

A personal testimony is fundamental to our faith. Consequently, the things we must do to acquire, strengthen, and retain a testimony are vital to our spiritual life. In addition to those already stated, we need to partake of the sacrament each week (see D&C 59:9) to qualify for the precious promise that we will “always have his Spirit to be with [us]” (D&C 20:77). Of course, that Spirit is the source of our testimonies.

IV.

Those who have a testimony of the restored gospel also have a duty to share it. The Book of Mormon teaches that we should “stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that [we] may be in” (Mosiah 18:9). …

 â€śTo some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

“To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful” (vv. 13–14; see also John 20:29).

Those who have the gift to know have an obvious duty to bear their witness so that those who have the gift to believe on their words might also have eternal life.

There has never been a greater need for us to profess our faith, privately and publicly (see D&C 60:2). Though some profess atheism, there are many who are open to additional truths about God. To these sincere seekers, we need to affirm the existence of God the Eternal Father, the divine mission of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the reality of the Restoration. We must be valiant in our testimony of Jesus. …

We live in a time when some misrepresent the beliefs of those they call Mormons and even revile us because of them. When we encounter such misrepresentations, we have a duty to speak out to clarify our doctrine and what we believe. We should be the ones to state our beliefs rather than allowing others the final word in misrepresenting them. This calls for testimony, which can be expressed privately to an acquaintance or publicly in a small or large meeting. As we testify of the truth we know, we should faithfully follow the caution to speak “in mildness and in meekness” (D&C 38:41). We should never be overbearing, shrill, or reviling. As the Apostle Paul taught, we should speak the truth in love (see Ephesians 4:15). Anyone can disagree with our personal testimony, but no one can refute it.

In closing, I refer to the relationship between obedience and knowledge. Members who have a testimony and who act upon it under the direction of their Church leaders are sometimes accused of blind obedience.

Of course, we have leaders, and of course, we are subject to their decisions and directions in the operation of the Church and in the performance of needed priesthood ordinances. But when it comes to learning and knowing the truth of the gospel—our personal testimonies—we each have a direct relationship with God, our Eternal Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, through the powerful witness of the Holy Ghost. This is what our critics fail to understand. It puzzles them that we can be united in following our leaders and yet independent in knowing for ourselves.

Perhaps the puzzle some feel can be explained by the reality that each of us has two different channels to God. We have a channel of governance through our prophet and other leaders. This channel, which has to do with doctrine, ordinances, and commandments, results in obedience. We also have a channel of personal testimony, which is direct to God. This has to do with His existence, our relationship to Him, and the truth of His restored gospel. This channel results in knowledge. These two channels are mutually reinforcing: knowledge encourages obedience (see Deuteronomy 5:27; Moses 5:11), and obedience enhances knowledge (see John 7:17; D&C 93:1).

We all act upon or give obedience to knowledge. Whether in science or religion, our obedience is not blind when we act upon knowledge suited to the subject of our action. A scientist receives and acts upon a trusted certification of the content or conditions of a particular experiment. In matters of religion, a believer’s source of knowledge is spiritual, but the principle is the same. In the case of Latter-day Saints, when the Holy Ghost gives our souls a witness of the truth of the restored gospel and the calling of a modern prophet, our choice to follow those teachings is not blind obedience.

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James 1:5-6

5 aIf any of you lack bwisdom, let him ask of God, that cgiveth to all men liberally, and dupbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

  6 But let him aask in bfaith, nothing cwavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Tags: Know Testimony Holy Ghost God Witness



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Viewing 1 - 8 out of 8 Comments

From: evangelical
07/10/2008 19:48:27

I am not trying to persecute you or get in a fight.  I had a legitimate and respectful question about the personal testimony.  I have asked, "what happens when Mormon claims and my understanding of the Bible conflict." Your answer is apparently that I just keep praying until I hear from God but you are unwilling to discuss the matter further.  Please correct me if I have misunderstood you.  I really am sincerely sorry if I have said anything of an offensive nature to you.  I want to be your internet friend not your internet enemy.  I shall continue to learn all I can about the Latter-Day Saints.  Thank you for your time.  Mayhaps we'll have the oppurtunity to interact, in a mutually non-hostile way, on the forums.  Goodbye for now.



From: PapilioMemnon
07/10/2008 07:26:24

Hello again Evangelical,


You have the ability to choose to learn about our faith and decide for yourself. What you need, only God can give you so ask of Him, not of your own. If you think you received an answer and it's no, well then.


Again, I used to belong to another denomination within the Christian faith, where the trinity was taught, and yes, I understood what they taught well; the Bible was the center of my studies for many years and still is; I spent 3-4 looking into other denominations (Baptists, protestant/evangelical, lutheran/methodist/Jehova's Witnesses,...) and their teachings of the Bible after I decided to look for something else from what I was brought up; and until I found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, nothing I came accross seem to fit the Bible as I understood it's teachings


This is what I was looking for because it simply makes "sense;" It's simple and plain teachings were clear; the missionaries' preaching/teaching was not done in anger/contention; they didn't show up with anti-(denominations) literature; they didn't talk bad/down about the denomination I said I belonged before even when I compared; they didn't draw parallels of how right they were, and how wrong and the heresies of the other denomination..., they didn't called wrong, and they're evil or satanic,... They simply taught me what they believed, ang gave me information and lots of time for me to think and learn, and decide for myself. That alone says quite a lot of people who instead of preaching what they believe, they confront, tell us what we believe (Through their own views and interpretations), and that we are wrong/the teachings are heresoies, satanic... This to me, is not the way Christ Himself taught His gospel!


When I went to learn about other denominations, I didn't go learn with preconceived ideas of how right I was and my previous beliefs were, and how twisted and wrong others were; I dropped my "beliefs' to try to look at the others more objectively; however, none of the others fit what I could/can, did/do understand of the scriptures taught in the Bible. I could easily turn the bible and scriptures to show how unfounded the belief of the Godhead (Trinity) is and many others that you seem to chose one teaching over the other (Paul versus James's ); and you can easily twist and say the same about us, but I won't argue about doctrine. I feel that the same way I was/am free to choose what I believe and what I believe fits best the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Bible, others are also allowed the same privilege.


Again, we worship God, the Father, in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ. We worship ONE God.


Again, I preach/teach, not argue, about the doctrine of Christ which I believe.


Be well!


Please let's move on from here.


There are threads on the Gospel forum that talks specifically about the Godhead, or the First Article of Faith. If you want to discuss it, not argue, please present your thread on the Christian Beliefs forum, and there you can ask about that; do the same about other principles,... and so on. We have very interesting people that are not members of our church (LDS church) there like Havenguard, abqfriend, PC (short fro PrisonChaplain), Dr. T, ... who belong to other denominations, but are interested in learning how we view the scriptures and our beliefs. They are extremely respectful! I really like their example. Hopefully, some others can see and follow their example! I would behave the same way if I were to comment on someone's blog or be part of another denomination forum!



From: evangelical
07/09/2008 23:19:41


Okay, so you have to test the revelation against other teachings of God. It is not a matter of mere subjective feeling. That makes me feel a lot better about the personal testimony/revelation idea. What happens when I am honestly studying Mormon doctrine and I see it clearly conflicts in many major points with biblical doctrine? It is legitimate to test the uniquely Mormon teachings against the Bible is it not? What should one in such a state of affairs do? For example, polytheism versus monotheism.


So then, in chapter two of “Gospel Principles” we are told that we have heavenly parents. This brings the total number of deities up to at least two. We further read, in the selfsame chapter, that we too may become heavenly parents. I presume that at least one couple will succeed in that endeavor in the entire history of the Church. That brings the total number of deities up to at least for. To qualify for polytheism you only need to affirm two deities. In contrast, the Bible clearly teaches monotheism. In Isaiah 43:10 God says there were no Gods before or after Him. In 44:6 He says, “…beside me there is no God.” In Deuteronomy 4:35 we read, “…the Lord he is God: there is none else beside him.” In Mark 12:29 Jesus said, “…The Lord our God is one Lord.” Finally, Paul tells us in I Corinthians 8:4, “…that there is none other God but one.”


So here is the situation. I interpret the Bible to teach monotheism but I interpret Mormon doctrine to teach polytheism. You don’t want to call it polytheism for some strange reason, apparently, but a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. As I was saying, I believe the Bible, then I see LDS doctrine, conveniently summarized in “Gospel Principles,” which clearly contradicts it. I would think that true revelation cannot contradict true revelation. Therefore wouldn’t I be forced to conclude that LDS teaching is not true? What other options are available to me?


At the risk of drifting off topic, I’d like to clarify a few side points which I think you may have misunderstood. First, I agree that faith is very important in the Christian life (absolutely vital, in fact) and that it, faith, is not a feeling. But I also think-and it seems you agree-that faith need not be blind. It is not as though we just wake up one morning and say, “well, I guess I’ll convert to Satanism today,” on a whim. Rather, if one is going to convert to that faith, Satanism, one ought to have very good reason in the first place. Even Jesus Himself said that we should count the cost before following Him. The impression I had of the faith of Mormonism was not essentially different from that of our new Satanist. I am not completely clear on the precise difference but I need to look into such matters more fully. It could well be that I’ll find, upon further reflection/investigation/dialogue (with you and perhaps others) I shall see a clear difference. By the way, though Peter did, maybe, feel the Holy Spirit when he confessed Christ, Thomas was most certainly given objective evidence. Jesus said, “now you believe [have faith] because you have seen [that which others may see is objective by definition-in this case, the reliving body of Jesus].


At any rate, my second concern is to clarify the doctrine of the Trinity. This is not the time nor place to go into every detail but it seems you have misinterpreted it. You are in good company. I don’t know if anybody who does not first believe in the Trinity accurately comprehends it. Even most of the people who do believe in the Trinity seem to misunderstand it. The passage in Genesis, and other pluralistic passages you allude to, are one of the reasons why Protestant and Catholic Christians believe in the Trinity. Some people are under the impression that the Council of Nicea invented the doctrine of the Trinity. Nothing could be further from the truth. Rather, the doctrine is taught in Scripture. Where? One place is Genesis 3:22. “Trinity” is short for “Tri-unity” or “three in one.” So “the [singular] Lord God said, Let Us [plural]…” As the entire Bible more or less makes clear, there is indeed only one God. But that one God is three Persons [“Us“]. We see in various verses that the Father is God, the Son is God (but He is not also the Father), and, finally, the Holy Spirit is God (though not also the Father and/or the Son). There are three different (though not separate) Persons but one God only. So of course “Us” is plural-not a plurality of deity but a plurality of Persons.


Third, I think you have misinterpreted James. “Faith” there seems to have a different nuance than the same word in some Pauline writings. We are saved, on my view, by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The faith we have produces good works. First we have faith, and with this faith we get salvation. Only after first believing, as we grow in Christ, do we do good works. So if one only says they have faith, but lacks true saving faith, they will not have works. But the works are not necessary for the salvation. This view of James is to be contrasted with the LDS view. The third article of faith makes this plain: “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. “ While the work of Christ is not totally ignored, obedience, or good works, are still necessary in contradistinction to what the Bible says.


Finally, I must affirm that I am very concerned to learn yours (and other LDS persons) point of view. I think that I have already seen a bit of that in our discourse thus far. This blog is about the testimony in particular so I don’t expect you to go into all the side points here. Perhaps after this discussion, on the testimony, draws to a close, we may move, if you are willing, to one of the forums on Mormon doctrine for a more general discussion. As for now, goodbye.



From: PapilioMemnon
07/09/2008 10:42:14

You're welcome, and it's no trouble at all!


   The first principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ is faith, and on my reply I gave you references to that. Believing with faith is not contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ and is not based on subjective knowledge either, and it is the first step to receive revelation from God Himself. I explained a bit about the role of the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, who teaches, testifies, and "brings all things to our memories," as Jesus taught us on John chapters 14-15. I also pointed out the scriptures in Galations 5:22-23 about the "fruits of the Spirit' which IF we learn to recognize the "fruits" as described "joy, peace,...," we know if those things are of God; the Holy Ghost will brings those "fruits' as we sincerely seek to learn & know the truth for ourselves.


A quick reference to receiving revelation again; I'm reposting the link so that you can review several things about it at your own pace, and interest http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sou rceId=cbb29c57af139010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____


A person must - 1. Have faith (Hebrews 11), 2. Keep the commandments, 3. Do His will long enough, 4. Learn the "fruits of the Spirit" to be able to recognize an answer from God, 5. If you feel you have an answer, check against the standards of the Lord. And to do all that, a person must be willing to be humble & meek so that God can teach him/her.


There are 3 ways we can be influenced: God, ourselves, & the enemy. Yes, if we do not learn well how to recognize the "fruits of the Spirit,' we will fall into confusion because we can have our personal feelings influencing us, and the enemy also may be execising his influence upon us (Feelings of anger, opposition, fear, hatred, contention, etc... are not from the Lord; therefore, we can know for sure that when we experience and feel those feelings, we are under the enemy's influence); if what we want or the way we view something is not in harmony with the things of the lord, again, we can know for sure that is our own feelings that are influencing us, not the Lord. In this case, revelation would contradict "revelation." And I completely agree with you about relying solely upon feelings, that is, our own feelings, not the "fruits of the Spirit,' that are not reliable; we are fickle beings, and our feelings change because of many influences and our personal one, desires, etc. However, when we invite and allow God to influence us, and open our hearts & mind to the Holy Ghost, we do experience pure truth/feelings/knowledge through His influence & power, and the manifestations of that are revelead as the "fruits of the Spirit." And after receiving a witness of the Holy Spirit, we must subject our fickle feelings to God Himself; when we notice an influence, be it of ourselves or the enemy, stirring up emotions/feelings that are opposed to the will of the Lord (You need to come to KNOW God to learn His will), we need to subject to the will of the Lord/moral codes/do what is right, not what we want! There's a clear difference about it.


I'm not sure what were trying to imply or say with "all the good and moral things" several people do? What about them? Who said anything about them? There's good in everyone and in every denomination or religion or lack of it as well! Who said anything contrary to that?


Again, Evangelical, we believe in God, the Eternal Father, in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost! We pray to one God in the name of His Son as we were taught. The fact we do not believe in the Trinity Theory developed by men does not make us polytheist. This is just one more way people twists what we believe, and tell us what we do believe. Here, if you want to know what we believe about God, please visit this link: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sou rceId=29ec2f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____


By the way, read Genesis carefully as in chapter 3 it's said: "22 ¶ And the Lord God asaid, Behold, the bman is become as one of cus, ' Us... in my dictionary means more that 1... There are much more biblical evidences that I could post, but I won't because people need to have milk before meat; the same way you seemed to have overlooked what I posted about what James wrote about faith & works, and faith, itself, as somehow, you manged to twist and say that "Now, I think what you say next is that, more or less, one starts with a subjective feeling.  One believes, in other words.  Then that subjective faith later adds an  objective component.'' when I clearly spoke about FAITH and how in Hebrews 11 faith is clearly taught & described, everything that I can post and show as biblical support, you'll do the same. Faith is not a feeling! Like love is not a feeling!


Here a link to what a very intelligent man has to say about what we believe as far as our belief in God: http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html


You're mixing a LOT of principles in one post! I highly suggest you to visit: www.mormon.org to learn about us, and what WE believe about basic principles of the gospel, or visit our threads, and ask questions there. I disagree with you about what "intelligence" is, but I won't be discussing that


Here's another link to several very intelligent men & women and what they have to say about our beliefs: http://lds.org/conference/sessions/display/0,5239,23-1-775,00.html


I hope that you remember when Jesus said to Peter that "not flesh or bone revealed to him that Jesus was/is the Christ, but the Father, through revelation, the Holy Ghost." Did Peter receive this knowledge by scientific proof? The Holy Ghost testified and he felt it, and believed it. Did all the Apostles? Among the Apostles, Thomas was there, and speding 3 years with the Lord Himself didn't have faith or quite believed Him... Did the Lord prove Himself with scientific evidences so that Thomas could believe Him? No... FAITH was required and still is! The idea/concept that all truth has to have scientific proof is false! Can you gain scientific knowledge and prove that I love my sons? ...  Faith, in the Lord, is what is asked of us.


I realize that you do not seem to be interested in learning how we view things, rather, you seem interested in trying to disprove or contend about what we or I believe and/or points of doctrine, and telling me/us what we believe! Which the latter is extremely interesting! That's ok; you do not have to believe; no one is saying that you do. I respect your opinions and feelings that none of your points have been backed up with scriptures, and your clear disagreement about the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. You're allowed to choose and believe in what you want, in your scietific proofs (Good luck with that one) and in what your feelings lead you to believe (Good luck with that one also).



I was not born into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints... and had studied many other Christian denominations before I even learn about the Mormon Church (Which was about 3-4 years). It was a good time in my life that preceeded the learning about the Church. I had a looooooong time to see things differently, and learned the way many other people viewed the same exact scriptures! Again... I was confused with all different points of view of the same things. The same denomination preaches/teaches something that is supposed to be general for all members of the same denomination, but then they also disagree with each other... I asked to meet the missionaries, and to hear what they had to say, what they believed. I studied, compared, reviewed, prayed, asked of God, and came to KNOW for myself that what they taught me was true & right! Yes, One faith, ONE Lord, One baptism: Anywhere you go in the world, the teachings/ordinances/doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the same for all! One Lord rules over it!


I received a witness of God through the Holy Ghost, and I KNOW those things are true! No men can take away what I KNOW to be true that was NOT given to me by men, but GOD Himself revealed it to me! 


Wish you well, and peace be unto you!


2 Nephi:29 - But to be alearned is good if they bhearken unto the ccounsels of God.


Mosiah 3: 19  For the anatural bman is an cenemy to God, and has been from the dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he eyields to the enticings of the Holy fSpirit, and gputteth off the hnatural man and becometh a isaint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a jchild, ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.


Proverbs 4:7 aWisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get bunderstanding.


 


 



From: evangelical
07/08/2008 18:22:03

First of all I must say how pleased I am with how courteous your reply was.  I thank you and commend you for that.  And thank you for going to all the trouble of clarifying your position.


Can revelation contradict revelation?  Wouldn't you agree that when one already has revelation, then if one gets something contradictory to the said revelation, the new thing cannot really be revelation?


I am very concerned about such an intimate link between revelation and feeling.  I had a girlfriend once who thought God spoke to her through her feelings.  Sometimes she would feel that we ought to be together (and we were at that time) and other times, during the same day, she felt we should not be together (so we would break up).  I tried to explain to her that feelings change with the breeze.  Feelings are a good thing of course, but a very unsure foundation to base the big decisions of your entire life on.  They are way too fickle.  Imagine if I had a wife and kids to support but did not feel like going to work?  In such a state of affairs I should neglect my feelings and do the right thing.


But that would be a bad fruit and apparently the Book of Mormon says only the good fruit feelings are from God (what if both choices produce good fruit?).  Why is it bad to obey my feelings to not go to work?  Because it violates an objective standard of ethics.  If a man does not provide for his family, after all, he is worse than an unbeliever.  We may, then, define right and wrong in terms of the Bible.  And according to the Bible, the fruit of the Latter-Day Saints is, if I may be frank, very bad.  Therefore, according to Moroni 7, the entire tree is bad as well.


But what about all the moral and loving things Mormon people do?  Surely Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Prostestants, Muslims, Agnostics, and even full-blown Atheists do good things too.  For this reason, I think we ought to include a doctrinal aspect into this discussion.  Do atheists have the truth about God?  Of course not.  And while I do not wish to hurt your ears, according to the Bible itself, Mormon doctrine is very bad.


Now, I think what you say next is that, more or less, one starts with a subjective feeling.  One believes, in other words.  Then that subjective faith later adds an  objective component.  Am I following you correctly here?  Could you give me a specific example from your own life of this sort of thing?  Also, could you give me a specific example of objective evidense for the Book of Mormon?  As for myself, I think it is a bit dangerous to start off believing any religion on subjective evidence (especially if that evidence is only a feeling) alone.  After all, a proponent of any faith could say that they started off believing in their religion because they just felt it was right for them.  It seems God would make things a lot clearer than that for us.


And what of polytheism?  According to my dictionary, and this is a direct quote, it is "the doctrine or worship of a plurality of gods." You deny the doctrine of the Trinity so isn't God the Father and God the Son two different Gods?  Don't you believe that as man is, God once was, as God is, man may become?  I was talking to a comitted LDS man once.  He is one of the most intelligent people I have ever met and taught Gospel Principles too.  He was in a Mormon family of several generations.  While considering whether to become a Mormon, he told me, "I hoped it was true.  I wanted it to be true that I could become a god some day." In short, I don't see how you can deny that LDS people believe in the doctrine of a plurality of gods.  Mormon theology is, in a word, polytheistic.


Finally, I find it very difficult to see how current LDS doctrine as a whole can be made to square with the Bible.  Even while reading Moroni 7 just now several red flags went up.  In at least one case the apparent conflict was not even with the Bible but with other uniquely LDS teaching.  Perhaps you see something I do not.  But it is important to realise that I am not the only one who is a possible victim of misinterprating the Bible through mens' minds.  Even if that man is the President of the Church.  The importance of the two or three witnesses is so one does not listen to the hearsay of a single man (Joseph Smith?).  If the two or three voices are all saying something different then they can't all be right.


Again, thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing your response.



From: PapilioMemnon
07/08/2008 13:25:49


evangelical wrote:


Knowledge of scientific truth is objective.  It has the benefit of being observable by others.  An LDS testimony is subjective.  We do have some subjective knowledge but the subjective knowledge must never trump objective knowledge.  We have persuasive objective evidence for the truth of biblical (as opposed to "restored") Christianity.  We know what Christianity is like on the basis of objective considerations.  Then we are going through a hard time, perhaps, and the Mormon missionaries come to our door.  They ask us to pray about the Book of Mormon and the restored gospel.  We are promised what appears to me to be a subjective feeling, though I may have misunderstood them, but we already know it is not true.  How do we know this?  Because subjective truth cannot contradict objective truth.  For example, Mormon theology includes very prominently within it, a doctrine of polytheism.  The Bible teaches monotheism.  "Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God is one," "Thus sayeth the Lord, I will not give my glory to another [say, through eternal progression]," "For though [according to the pagans] there are lords many and gods many, yet for us [who know the truth] there is but one God," and so on.  The major problem of the entire Old Testament was getting the Jews to be monotheists.  The lesson finally sunk in but at a great cost.  We have objective reasons for faith in the Bible.  Why believe in the Book of Mormon, D and C, and Pearl of Great Price?  Because we have subjective "knowledge" which contradicts the Bible that we aquired, in all probability, either from generations of familial indoctrination or at an emotional-crisis point in our lives when we were looking for peace and community?  At any rate, if one believes the Bible, and reads it intelligently for oneself, one cannot, it seems to me, also believe the Mormon heresies gleaned from the other standard works.  Finally, I am trying to be brutally honest in this post though not offensive (I sincerely mean that) or directly attack any particular individual or group of people no matter what they believe in this wonderfully free country of ours.  Am I way off in left feild here?  Please correct me if what I've said is not true.  I whole-heartedly welcome critiques to this (and subsequent) post(s) of mine.  I look forword to reading the responses.



Thanks for reading and commenting on my blog.


We do beleive in prayer, and through it, we believe we communicate with our Father in Heaven We were taught by Jesus Christ to pray always, and pray to the Father in HIS name; that only through Him, we would get to the Father. Since communication is a 2-way street, we believe God answers our prayers in many different ways through the Holy Ghost. We believe in the principle of revelation and that anyone can receive personal revelation for anything they need or is very expedient/important for them to know, for guidance, warnings, etc.


If you'd like to learn more about what we believe about receiving revelation, please visit these links: http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sou rceId=4e409207f7c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____



Revelation - http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sou rceId=cbb29c57af139010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____



Revelation is communication from God to His children. This guidance comes through various channels according to the needs and circumstances of individuals, families, and the Church as a whole. When the Lord reveals His will to the Church, He speaks through His prophet. Prophets are the only people who can receive revelation for the Church, but they are not the only people who can receive revelation. According to our faithfulness, we can receive revelation to help us with our specific personal needs, responsibilities, and questions and to help us strengthen our testimony.


On a talk titled: Eight Ways God can Speak to You, Elder Oaks said the following:


"Revelation is communication from God to man. It can occur in many different ways. Some prophets, like Moses and Joseph Smith, have talked with God face to face. Some persons have had personal communication with angels. Other revelations have come, as Elder James E. Talmage (1862–1933) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles described it, “through the dreams of sleep or in waking visions of the mind.” 1



In its more familiar forms, revelation or inspiration comes by means of words or thoughts communicated to the mind (see Enos 1:10; D&C 8:2–3), by sudden enlightenment (see D&C 6:14–15), by positive or negative feelings about proposed courses of action, or even by inspiring performances, as in the performing arts. As President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has stated, “Inspiration comes more as a feeling than as a sound.” 2


We were taught in Galatians 5 the "fruits' of the Spirit are:


22 But the afruit of the bSpirit is clove, djoy, epeace, flongsuffering, ggentleness, goodness, hfaith,



  23 aMeekness, btemperance: against such there is no law.

Those are states of mind and feelings as well; we believe our feelings based on the fruits of them; when we think, read,watch, do something, we feel something, and based on the feeling it produces, we may know if it's the Holy Ghost's influence of not, i.e., if it's f God or not.

 

Faith, as defined in Hebrews 11, is "afaith is the bsubstance of things choped for, the devidence of things not seen." When we do things in faith, the essence of hope, we receive the evidences (obejctive) of things we can't see because we believe by faith.

We believe by faith because everything is done by faith, and without it nothing is/was done! Faith is not subjective; it's provides evidences after its trial! We are to believe by faith, not scientific proof of anything.

I KNOW it's true because of the evidences of living in faith the principles I embraced. The marvelous things about revelation is that anyone can receive it if they will do the necessary to qualify for it, and wait upon the Lord.

Now, in Moroni 7 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/7), we are taught clearly the way to judge if something is of God or not. If the person's heart is open to the influence of the Spirit, and is humble, and meek, the person opens the door to personal revelation. When you receive it, and see the evidences of it, it's not subjective any longer! Aside from that, there are plenty of objective knowledge about the Book of Mormon as well!

 

Now, this is not about polytheism or monotheism, but regarding your reference in stating that we are polytheists ("For example, Mormon theology includes very prominently within it, a doctrine of polytheism."), I can tell you don't know much about what we believe. I suggest you look around the threads under LDS Gospel, and look for threads on 1st Article of Faith, Role of the Holy Ghost, etc. to learn more about us.  



God the Father



God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He "has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (D&C 130:22).


As you said, if one reads the Bible "intelligently," I mean that with the Spirit of God, not men's mind, one will be able to see that the Book of Mormon is a true account of Jesus Christ, and everything else that followed because "... in the mouth of two or three awitnesses every word may be established. '


 



From: evangelical
07/07/2008 20:03:46

Knowledge of scientific truth is objective.  It has the benefit of being observable by others.  An LDS testimony is subjective.  We do have some subjective knowledge but the subjective knowledge must never trump objective knowledge.  We have persuasive objective evidence for the truth of biblical (as opposed to "restored") Christianity.  We know what Christianity is like on the basis of objective considerations.  Then we are going through a hard time, perhaps, and the Mormon missionaries come to our door.  They ask us to pray about the Book of Mormon and the restored gospel.  We are promised what appears to me to be a subjective feeling, though I may have misunderstood them, but we already know it is not true.  How do we know this?  Because subjective truth cannot contradict objective truth.  For example, Mormon theology includes very prominently within it, a doctrine of polytheism.  The Bible teaches monotheism.  "Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God is one," "Thus sayeth the Lord, I will not give my glory to another [say, through eternal progression]," "For though [according to the pagans] there are lords many and gods many, yet for us [who know the truth] there is but one God," and so on.  The major problem of the entire Old Testament was getting the Jews to be monotheists.  The lesson finally sunk in but at a great cost.  We have objective reasons for faith in the Bible.  Why believe in the Book of Mormon, D and C, and Pearl of Great Price?  Because we have subjective "knowledge" which contradicts the Bible that we aquired, in all probability, either from generations of familial indoctrination or at an emotional-crisis point in our lives when we were looking for peace and community?  At any rate, if one believes the Bible, and reads it intelligently for oneself, one cannot, it seems to me, also believe the Mormon heresies gleaned from the other standard works.  Finally, I am trying to be brutally honest in this post though not offensive (I sincerely mean that) or directly attack any particular individual or group of people no matter what they believe in this wonderfully free country of ours.  Am I way off in left feild here?  Please correct me if what I've said is not true.  I whole-heartedly welcome critiques to this (and subsequent) post(s) of mine.  I look forword to reading the responses.



From: Hemidakota
06/26/2008 07:23:28



Testimony is a fragile piece of life that must be carefully worked
daily to ensure that our eternal success is reached. Our testimonial goal
should be one that equals our own beloved Joseph Smith in the end within
mortality.


HD





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