[Traveler]

Originally Posted by DigitalShadow

I like your approach to the subject but it still seems somewhat flawed to me, so let us debate this further.

When I flip a light switch, I don't have "faith" that it will turn on and that the concepts behind incandescent lighting are sound. I have simply observed that when I hit the switch, the vast majority of the time the light will turn on. The same logic can not be applied to faith in religion. I have observed that when people pray using any religion, this does not improve their chances of anything. Good things and bad things happen just the same... if good things happen, they assume their prayer was answered, if bad things happen they justify it by saying either they didn't have enough faith or it was God's plan. This gives me no precedence to rely on as I haid with the lighting analogy.

Yes it is true that I love my wife, but I don't believe it required a leap of faith. I didn't bare everything and leave myself completely vulnerable to her the second I met her, just as she didn't bare everything to me. As we got to know each other better, we slowly opened up to each other as new levels of trust were reached. Again, applying the same philosophy to religion yields no results. I have prayed many times and received nothing in return. No imperical evidence or even feelings of the divine.

Reality is subjective. We each create our own reality through our unique neural mappings in our brain. All any of us have to go on is what we see and touch, so that's what I draw my conclusions from, and so far none of my observations have lead me to believe in a religion.

Now let me pose another question to you. People believe in religion based on feelings, right? Arguing which religion has more emperical evidence is fruitless because because they are all meant to be taken on faith. But the problem I see with this is that there are many religions out there all with people that claim to have received divine feelings leading them to their particular religion. I've met people from different faiths, all extremely devoted and claiming to "know" their religion is true. Obviously all of them can't be right as many of them have conflicting messages, so how can these divine feelings be trusted if they obviously have the capability to mislead people?

Thank you for responding. Back to the light and switch analogy. The point is that without knowledge of how the causes and effects apply to produce light by what ever means – people make assumptions. When you make an assumption that is another way of exercising faith. As a scientist I can vouch for fact that despite how often something seems to work; if the principles are not understood there is no scientific reason to make assumptions that trends will continue. There are only two means by which a person can act. One is by knowledge the other by assumption or faith. All that faith is – is the propensity to act without knowledge and make assumptions based on trends.

It is possible that people act in misguided faith – gambling is a good example of this. Anyone that understands statistics will not “gamble”, unless they act foolishly with misguided assumptions and faith.

Prayer is interesting to me. I find it odd that so many people pray without realizing they are approaching the most brilliant and intelligent mind in the universe, yet they would advise him on how to run things and answer according to their view of things. Yes, I agree that many people answer their own prayers or they un-answer their own prayers. What G-d is doing is allowing those that would learn from him to become enlightened. Contrary to popular opinion enlightenment is not the ability to spout doctrine, it is the means to become loving and compassionate – when loving and compassion are not logical.

I used the fact that you love your wife to make more than a logical point. If you only love when it is logical then those that you think you love will not have faith in you or your love.

The Traveler