Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler
Thank you for responding. Back to the light and switch analogy. The point is that without knowledge of how the causes and effects apply to produce light by what ever means – people make assumptions. When you make an assumption that is another way of exercising faith. As a scientist I can vouch for fact that despite how often something seems to work; if the principles are not understood there is no scientific reason to make assumptions that trends will continue. There are only two means by which a person can act. One is by knowledge the other by assumption or faith. All that faith is – is the propensity to act without knowledge and make assumptions based on trends.
It is possible that people act in misguided faith – gambling is a good example of this. Anyone that understands statistics will not “gamble”, unless they act foolishly with misguided assumptions and faith.
Prayer is interesting to me. I find it odd that so many people pray without realizing they are approaching the most brilliant and intelligent mind in the universe, yet they would advise him on how to run things and answer according to their view of things. Yes, I agree that many people answer their own prayers or they un-answer their own prayers. What G-d is doing is allowing those that would learn from him to become enlightened. Contrary to popular opinion enlightenment is not the ability to spout doctrine, it is the means to become loving and compassionate – when loving and compassion are not logical.
I used the fact that you love your wife to make more than a logical point. If you only love when it is logical then those that you think you love will not have faith in you or your love.
The Traveler
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First off, I'd like to thank you for your reply as well, it's nice to find a fellow scientist here.
My point with the analysis of your light analogy is that if you define faith that way (as the propensity to act without knowledge and make assumptions based on trends), then I don't see how it applies to religion. I assume that the light switch will turn on the light based on the trend that it almost always turns on the light (unless the light bulb is burnt out), I assume that a religion is true based on the trend ???. There are no direct action to result links that can be made in religion. The only testable conditions a religion provides all happen after you're dead.
I also disagree on your gambling point. I don't think people gamble because they have an ignorance of statistics (or common sense for that matter, casinos obviously make lots of money), I think they gamble because they get addicted to the rush they get when they win against the odds and make money off it. They don't have faith (or make an assumtion) that they will make money.
I think that a better example is religious fanatic terrorists who have faith that killing for their religion is the right thing to do and they will be rewarded for it. We can say how wrong and evil they are from our point of view, but we also had drastically different upbrinings. If you're raised from birth to believe something is true, chances are you will grow up to have an unshakable belief in it. This is supported by the fact that the majority of people are the same religion as their parents (obviously there are exceptions, I'm just observing the majority).
My point is simply that faith can be a dangerous thing and knowing where to place it (if anywhere) is a non-trivial matter to me. I hear people say how strong their faith is and that no matter what is discovered or what evidence comes to light, it would not shake their beliefs, but I don't think I can ever be like that. It seems unscientific to me. There are hunches that you can go on in science, but faced with overwhelming evidence opposing them, I don't see the value in blindly following my original hunch to the exclusion of everything else.
I do completely agree with you on prayer though and I wish more people saw it that way.
And to clarify, I do believe love goes beyond logic, but it is also something that requires two parties. I love my wife more than anything and she can see that in the things I do, just as I can see it in the things she does. My point is that I don't feel love from a higher power, no matter how much I try to give it. You can say that it's because I don't want it enough, just as I can say that you only feel it because you want it so much.
Sorry for the long post, but I really am enjoying this conversation
