Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm
Hello DS:
I think you suffer from "west-tocitosis" like a dear friend of mine coined our short-sighted, naive and misinformed perspective of world. There is no such thing as an "universal sense of right and wrong." Just because you see a more or less "civilized" societies in the west and the appearance of law and order it does not mean that it is the norm but rather the exception.
In most of the world today, law, order and rules are ascertained based on mores and values, communal rules linked to survival and the threat of war. Safety and well being is a function of tribal affiliation, aggressive posturing and the means to inflict death or the fear of.
The ONLY reason the west is a bit better is because of the Judeo-Christian traditions and history. But we are 1000 years away from its origins so we can not see it. You are a product of the west and its mores and values, including a socially "impregnated" sense of moral behavior, which is nothing more than socially expected behavior that can be adjusted depending on your family history, educational level, socioeconomic status and the like. But it is not a universal concept. The natural man is an enemy to God and has been since the beginning.
For the non-believer there is no life after death so nothing to worry about. It is the one that knows but decides to ignore the "warning labels" for whatever reason the one that should be affraid. At the end of the road the anxiety creeps in and they then recognize that there is no other way but to turn to God for certainty. Although some remain defiant to the end. Go figure. For the believer faith is precisely the absence of fear. It is the affirmation of certainty since we know for SURE where we are going after this life on account of having lived our lives in accordance with the commandments of God, who is the ultimate judge and arbiter for the faithful and also the unfaithful.
I was not implying that you were not an upstanding citizen. On the contrary. Eloquent as your assertion is about you being a morally upright person, which again is in nowise in question, it is however naive. To say that it is a spontaneous expression of self (universal goodness) ignores most of the atrocities recorded in recent history. Again I have heard the argument before and it seems to me that ignoring/denying God but believing in goodness and an innate sense of right or wrong is like talking about wood furniture and refusing to talk about the forest.
Any thoughts?
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I believe that people have a basic sense of right and wrong which is refined and enforced with laws and culture. Just because some places in the world are less "civilized", doesn't mean they have a different basic sense of right and wrong, they have simply justified their actions with necessity. Survival is obviously a stronger human imperitive than altruism, that doesn't mean altruism doesn't exist. Anyone who spends a few seconds pondering morality will realize that if everyone treated others how they would like to be treated the world would be a lot better place. The fact that our country is prosperous and that we don't have to worry about survival or impending invasions means that we are better able to focus on morality, it has little or nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian cultural start.
I would also like to clarify something. Believing that there is nothing after death is a belief, just like believing there is something after death. A "non-believer" doesn't have to subscribe to either of those. I admit that I have no idea what happens after I die, and I am OK with that. You say that faith is the absence of fear for a believer, but I tend to think it is more accurately the reliever of fear. Instead of having to deal with the concept of not knowing what happens, a believer puts their faith into a religion and then they no longer have to fear because they "know" what will happen.
I don't believe that my good behavior is a spontaneous expression of a universal concept of morality, but I do believe that it has nothing to do with my acceptance/rejecting of God. There are many factors that affect how moral a person is, but in my experience it has little or nothing to do with their religion (or lack there of).