[Athanasias]

Originally Posted by NateHowe

With great respect to the Catholic tradition, that particular aspect of the Mass makes little sense to me. Essentially, you are saying that it is a new sacrifice, a new Atonement, at every Mass. This seems contrary to Paul's warning about those who "crucify the Son of God afresh" (Hebrews 6).

Hi Nate, thanks once again for your good responses. I now understand a bit more of where your coming from although I still am a bit confused and still have a few questions if you don't mind. In the Catholic understanding we do not teach that the Eucharist is a new sacrifice. Christ does not die again at the mass or suffer. Rather we teach that the mass is the same sacrifice as Calvary only under different form, a unbloody form(bread and wine). Christ gives us his sacrifice in that form of bread and wine to fulfill the priesthood of Melchisedek(Heb 6) who offered the sacrifice of bread and wine(Gen 17). In other words we Catholics teach that the Eucharist is the present day application of the once and for all bloody sacrifice of Calvary made present to us today. It is a real celebration of the new covenant passover sacrifice. The bloody dying form of the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was redemption accomplished. The Eucharist unbloody form of Calvary's sacrifice is redemption applied personally to us as we eat his real flesh and blood in this new passover sacrifice and therefore take part in the new passover covenant. I hope that helps you understand our point.

Originally Posted by NateHowe

In our doctrine, there was one Atonement, wrought by Jesus Christ, at one time. That Atonement is infinite in power and scope, and it was the great and last sacrifice necessary to save all men who would come unto Christ and live according to His commandments. Christ suffered once. The Atonement occurred once. Our role is not to reenact or remake the Atonement, but to accept and apply it in our lives.

I understand what you mean. Catholics teach that Christ atonement was the great and last sacrifice nessarry to save all men too. We just teach that that the this last sacrifice and atonement is apllied personally to us in the eucharist when Calvary's unbloody form is given to us.

Originally Posted by NateHowe

First, the Priest is not the head of the congregation, as in Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Joseph Smith wrote: "We believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive Church, namely, Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists and so forth." In this organization, Priesthood leaders oversee various groups of people. In our Wards, the Bishop is the head of the congregation, and he presides in the Sacrament Meeting. The Prophet and the Apostles preside over the entire Church.

I see your point. and I would agree with much of it. Catholics also teach that the Bishop is the head of the congregation. But priest are the heads of their parish too under the Bishops authority as Timothy and Titus were under St. Paul as their Bishop initially. As a matter of fact we teach that the Bishop of Rome is the head of the entire Church. We just believe as the scripture shows that the Apostles who lead the early congregations and their successors were also priest of the new covenant. The Church is headed by the Pope(successor to St. Peter) and the Magisterium(Body of Teachers made up of clergy) as reflected in the book of Acts and church history.

Originally Posted by NateHowe

However, in addition to presiding over certain groups, the Priesthood is the power to perform ordinances. In your view, the Eucharist is the ordinance of greatest importance. For us, although the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper is a supremely sacred ordinance, other saving ordinances which the Lord instituted (such as Baptism and the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost) bear equal weight. Every ordinance instituted by the Savior is sacred to us, and different ordinances require different authority.

I can certainly see what you are saying. We catholics beleive that all the Sacraments are also holy and important to salvation. All the sacraments are rooted in the work of Jesus and the Cross and all of them apply the saving graces of the Cross to us personally in different ways. We do view the Eucharist as most important and central though. This is mainly because we believe that the Eucharist is Truly Jesus Christ in Corporeal form under the appearances of bread an wine (body, blood, soul and divinity) and makes his saving sacrifice present to us today in unbloody form.

Originally Posted by NateHowe

The preparatory Priesthood is named for Aaron, the great ancient Priest. Within this Aaronic Priesthood are the offices of Deacon, Teacher, Priest, and Bishop. The Aaronic Priesthood includes the authority to baptize and to administer the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper.

The higher Priesthood is named for Melchizedek, the great High Priest. Within the Melchizedek Priesthood are the offices of Elder, High Priest, Seventy, and Apostle. The Prophet, who is the President of the Church, is the presiding Apostle. The Melchizedek Priesthood includes authority to anoint and bless the sick, to preside in meetings of the Church, to administer ordinances in the Temple (such as Eternal Marriage), and many other privileges and responsibilities. Those with the Melchizedek Priesthood can also administer in the ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood.

Priesthood is the government of God's Kingdom on Earth and the authority to perform the ordinances which Jesus Christ instituted for the benefit of mankind.

This was very enlightening. thanks for the overview!

Originally Posted by NateHowe

The Atonement of Christ ended animal sacrifice as a part of true worship. The Priests in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints administer the Sacrament as instructed by revelation for the benefit of the congregation. This is in accordance with scripture. Although Christ and Paul place strong emphasis on the Lord's Supper, they do not indicate or validate the doctrines of transubstantiation or the power of the Priest over Christ during the Mass. These were later alterations to true doctrine. Priests (as all those who hold the Priesthood) are servants of the Lord and of their fellow man. They are called, as were the Priests in the Old and New Testaments, to perform the ordinances dictated by the Lord for the people at that time, under the direction of the living Prophet.

Here is where we may politely dissagree. I do beleive that priest were definitely called to perform ordinances of God. We teach that too. However the main ordinance the priest were to perform has alway been sacrifice! Something to note. The entire main function of Priest and priesthood in general as revealed by God in the new and old testaments and in history and in almost all world religions has been to act as mediators and offer sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. In fact this is something that Jesus commanded his new priest the Apostles to go and do, namely to offer the new covenant sacrifice in his blood in the Eucharist. So when you say that you have priesthood but your priest do not offer liturgical Eucharistic sacrifice's to God on behalf of the people or when you say they do not act as mediators this puzzles me because that is the main function of a ordained priest. So why do you have priest then? Why not just have pastors or Elders who perform ordinances like the protestants do? This is still my stumbling block. I just don't see how you can have ordained priest but no Eucharistic sacrifices and no mediatorship? I mean those are what defines a priest, namely sacrifice and mediatorship.


In addition to what we are discussing I would also dissagree with you about the dogma of transubstantiation. I beleive the merely symbolic view of the supper was a late protestant doctrine not found in the first 1500 years of the Church. I also believe that Jesus himself and his Apostles, especially St. Paul and St. John taught it as well as the entire early Church including those who were taught by the apostles. I also believe that recent and past Eucharistic miracles that were even tested by science proves this. If you would like we could discuss this aspect further or at a later time.

I am not sure what you mean when you say "the power the Priest has over Christ during mass". Could you explain please?

Originally Posted by NateHowe

This is the great key, which Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and other world religions ignore: Revelation from God to His Prophets. We can point to the Bible and infer a course the Lord would have us take, but the Bible was not written as an instruction manual. It is a collection of sacred historical documents from various times and authors. It does not claim to be complete, because the Bible was not written with the conscious notion that it would be collected in its current form. Whenever the Lord has had His Church on Earth, He has organized it with a living Prophet at its head and Priesthood authority as its foundation, with Christ the chief cornerstone. That is the position of the Latter-day Saints - that God reveals His will in all pertinent matters to the Prophet. The Prophet gives us direction so that we will remain aligned with the will of God. This is the oldest pattern in the world's religious history, beginning with Adam.

Actually Catholics do not ignore revelation. We teach and believe in divine revelation. We even beleive in prophecy as we have those things in our church too. We do not deny prophecy. The prophets played a great part of the old testament revelation. They also have a role in the new testament and in the church today. But the new testament revelation was given to the leaders. Bishops, Priest, Deacons, to proclaim in council (Act 15) and take charge over and not the prophets. Public revelation also ended with the death of the last apostle John while private revelation still continues today. In fact the new testament writers that were given divine revelation to write were apostles and bishops like Peter and Paul and John they were not prophets yet they proclaimed the word of God to the congregation. They held those sacred priestly offices. So we do not ignore those things. We teach them. Catholics unlike protestants would also say that scripture was never meant to be taken as a the sole mere manual either. Scripture apart from the apostolic oral traditions of the apostles and the authority of the teaching church is imcomplete. Sola scripture was a protestant doctrine not a Catholic one. However we must also never deny the truths that Gods holy revelation teaches whether found in scripture, apostolic tradition, or both. So given the priesthood is defined in scripture and in in all the worlds religions as primarily having sacrificial functions. And given the new testament by Jesus own words command the apostles to offer the Eucharist as his new covenant sacrifice. How then is one to understand you priesthood apart from the sacrifice and mediatorship?


I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. In your response to me last you kind of strayed away from my original question of Priesthood and brought up all kinds of other stuff like transubstantiation, prophecy sola scriptura, etc that had nothing to do with my original question. I simply answered a few things that you said but I would like to get back to talking about the Priesthood and Sacrifice and the LDs reasons why their priest do not follow the biblical or historical or world pattern of functions for priest and we can get away from other more distracting topics. We can talk about those things later. I do appreciate you taking time out to answer my questions. You have been very helpful and I thank you. Lets just try to keep on topic and steer away from other things that so not have anything to do with the priesthood and sacrifice of the new testament.

May God bless you always
I look forward to hearing your thoughtful and good response. It has been a blessing talking to you.

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasias