here is the conversation. I get very heated, i need to work on that.
Chitty Wrote: WHY IS THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY LITTERED WITH SIGNS AND SYMBOLS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THE FREEMASON DEGREES? DO YOU THINK ITS ONLY A COINCIDENCE THAT JOSEPH SMITH INITIATED INTO FREEMASONRY AND THEN WITHIN THE MONTH "REVEALED" THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY, WITH ALL ITS MASONIC ELEMENTS? AND LASTLY, DO YOU FIND IT ODD THAT OVER THE YEARS THE MOST OBVIOUS MASONIC ELEMENTS (THE PENALTIES, THE FIVE POINTS OF FELLOWSHIP, ETC.) HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE MORMON TEMPLE CEREMONY?
me:I find it very sad that you did not have a strong enough faith to withstand the pitfalls and snares of anti-mormon literature. If you were so shaken by this fact, then you obviously did not have a testimony of the prophet and the restoration of the gospel. While i am far from a perfect saint, i have only been in the church 8 months and have a testimony of the prophet. Remember what predated what: Christian temples or Masonry? And, also remember that there is a difference in the endowment and the endowment ritual, which has been adapted several times to further the understanding of people at the time.
i suggest you peruse through this. and whatever church you belong to now, i hope that you build a stronger faith in it.
How does one explain similarities between Masonic and temple ritual?
that might help you out. And may god bless you.
Chitty wrote: I find it interesting that you attacked my credibility, worth, and integrity as a person instead of answering my questions. In an effort to keep this civil, I won't tear into you at this time.
Have you even been through the temple?
Me:No, i haven't been through the temple, but i know enough about it to answer your questions as i have dealt with this attack before (people will do anything in their power to prevent a baptism). I don't believe i attacked your worth or integrity as a person. I could see where you would say i attacked your crediblity, which was not my intention. I was actually just saddened by your loss of faith, if you had faith to begin with (not an attack, just an assumption).
And i did answer your question:
remember that there is a difference in the endowment and the endowment ritual, which has been adapted several times to further the understanding of people at the time.
i suggest you peruse through this. and whatever church you belong to now, i hope that you build a stronger faith in it.
How does one explain similarities between Masonic and temple ritual?
and referred you to a scholarly site in which you could learn more on the subject.
Chitty wrote:"www.fairlds.org" is about the furthest thing possible away from being a scholarly site. I studied the temple ceremony inside and out (have you?) as a believing mormon and missionary. I spent years studying Freemasons and their rites (have you?) - not from your reviled "anti-mormon literature" but rather from their own source materials. I came to this conclusion on my own after years of study, not some apologist or anti website. And trust me, my decision didn't come about because I was offended or had sinned or whatever mormons usually blame it on. It was actual free thought! Imagine that!
I know you're only 8 months into this, so naturally you're going to be defensive about your newfound beliefs. Your new mormonism-filter and the fact that I was there and now look at it from an outsider's perspective is going to make this nearly impossible to debate. I mean, your entire new way of life is on the line here!
The thing that makes me absolutely sick (other than the usual condescending tone of mormons towards "non"-mormons) to my stomach though is hearing you use the same tone and defenses that I taught people to use as a missionary, back when I believed. I dumbed down and blinded people for 2 years, and hearing you is just reminding me of that. The thought that I taught people to believe that they are free under the guise of "agency" is something I don't think I can forgive myself for.
me:
While you hardly find it scholarly, that article may prove to be a good source - Greg Kearney is not only a temple going member of the church (who has no doubt experienced the endowment ceremony numerous times) he is also a life member of Franklin Lodge #123 A.F. & A.M. as well as several lodges of research. He gives Masonic education lectures at lodges on the history and relationship of Freemasonry to the development of the Latter-day Saint temples.
While i may have only been a member of the church 8 months, i have been an investigator for well over 3 years. Nothing compared to your life of service (year wise), but i know that i have faced more doctrinal discussions and debates than (i'd say) the majority of members in my ward. Many of the formative years of my life were spent in deep study of the church. So yes, believe it or not, i have looked into Masons and their rites and studied the temple ceremony. And, our differences in opinions may be in the different ways we studied. Having a testimony of the prophet, i knew that the temple ceremony was inspired. There is something you taught as a missionary: if the Book of Mormon is true, then it also must be true that JS was a prophet. I wholeheartedly believe in the BoM, so i also believe that JS was a prophet. So, i believe his revelations were inspired, including that of the temple ceremony. Do i find it odd that masonic traces were in the endowment? Not at all. Christ's parables taught men in ways that they understand, so does the temple ceremony. And, in the beginning of the restoration of the church, masonry was widely practiced. Few people were members, and a lot were masons, so naturally they would be able to understand the endowment through those teachings. Today there are 13-14 million members (though hardly that many are temple worthy) and i suspect that a small percentage of those are masons, they would not understand things like the penalties and five points of fellowship. And, just for reference, the missionaries didn't teach me anything that hadn't already found out for myself through prayer and study. So don't tear yourself up about my "tone and defense," they are all mine. Studying the history of the people in the 1830s, the area, the culture: i found a belief system that there was no answer to but baptism. That is why i joined the church. It just seemed common sense after all that time.
Chitty: Yeah, I'm familiar with him and read a bit of his stuff a while back.
I will give you this: most people who write "anti-mormon" stuff are idiots and don't know what they're talking about. But I also happen to think their opposite, most believing mormons, are also.
I am happy to hear that you spent years worth of time preparing yourself for it. I will give you that. Most mormons are naive when it comes to the issues people take with the church, so at least you put forth an effort to think it through.
That looks like it may be the end of it. It seems he realized that i am not as naive as he thought and decided to retreat?