[guitarwizard]

By guitarwizard (Power User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:13 AM (59 minutes ago)
knowing the close bonds Joseph had to both his father and Hyrum, i am sure that he had learned many of the mason rituals prior to his initiation.

By Chitty (User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:53 AM (19 minutes ago)
That's quite the assumption. The plain as day reality is that he was initiated as a Mason in Nauvoo, and within weeks "revealed" the early version of the Endowment. I encourage you to get a transcript of the 3 Main Degrees of Masonry, and then an earlier version of the Endowment (pre-1930 preferably so you can see more of the Masonic influences). Lay them side-by-side and then we'll talk. They have since taken out the blatantly masonic elements (the Penalties which were word-for-word lifted from the masons, and also an entire portion of the Endowment known as The Five Points of Fellowship, which is also a direct lift from the masonic ceremony). Don't complicate this with your talking points - it's quite obvious.

By guitarwizard (Power User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:05 PM (7 minutes ago)
I never disagreed with you! I know that the endowment ceremony contained masonic influences! and i also know that Joseph was a mason! i believe i said that in my first reply to you (first or second). I also know that Joseph was a prophet. The majority of the early church were humble farmers. Joseph obviously had sat in with many of them at the masonic lodge and saw them contemplated the rites when they could hardly read and write themselves. He sees them understanding this complex ritual and realizes that by using elements from the rites, they could understand the endowment better, and realize through that ceremony what they were being endowed with. Remember: there is the endowment and then there is what carries the message of the endowment. What carried the message in the temples at nauvoo and until 1930 included those masonic influences. It probably took so long to change as well because the church has a whole needed to realize this. But as we went from the understanding farmers who had experienced parts of this in the lodge to the baffled people twentieth century, the prophets knew it was time for the ceremony to be changed to for better understanding.

Also, don't just focus on the similarities. When you do that, when you are exclusive to one part of an argument, that is the anti-game. Focus on the differences as well. What about washings and anointing that were the part of the endowment, do not forget the importance of this. It was also part of the endowment. Part that is present nowhere in the mason practices. Also, this was prior to Joseph being a mason! This rules out the idea of "they have a ceremony, let's have a ceremony." The endowment was already being recieved "line upon line."

So there are parts of the endowment, even from Nauvoo, that have no equivalency in Freemasonry. We also have parts of the endowment that spring back from Kirtland. And you insinuate that the endowment is stolen from masonry? Maybe you also need to lay them out side-by-side. I have done my research.

Your move.


By Chitty (User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:08 PM (4 minutes ago)
Dude, the only part of the Endowment that was "revealed" in Kirtland were the washings and annointings.

God, you're a f------ idiot. Enjoy your jesus-jammies and 90% pay for the rest of your pathetic, mindless, life.


By guitarwizard (Power User) on Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:13 PM (Just now)
i am an idiot? How am i idiotic? Because i see past the anti bull and can understand where this plays a role? Because i can actually comprehend that something can be taken from somewhere else and used to convey a message? Because i can see Christ doing the same thing in the New Testament? Or have you lost faith in that too?

I just really want to know, even if it is your last message to me: Why does that make me idiotic?