[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by ceeboo

CONTEXT AND DEFINITIONS ARE CRITICAL FOR THIS DISCUSSION:
Apostasy- a falling away from the Church Jesus built
COMPLETE OR TOTAL APOSTASY- JESUS' Church gone, lights out, no more authority

I notice here an institutional emphasis. In the LDS view, the Church still could exist in the midst of a complete or total apostacy. When we speak of apostacy, it is not so much just the Church in name that goes away, but rather two important elements: (1) the organization of the Church (2) the Priesthood of the individual members of the Church.

As I understand it there was no central or unified Church for at least 300 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. There were local Bishops and no single Bishop was in charge of the collective, until after the Nicene Council. Not only this, but the council was convened by Imperial decree. Regardless, the Church no longer had apostles, though we read in scripture the apparent need to replace deceased apostles with new replacements. Unfortunately, this biblical practice did not continue, and the Church was no longer organized in the way the Savior set it up, the way Peter tried to keep it going. This is not a minor detail.

Donatism strikes at the heart of #2 above. We as LDS understand that the priesthood authority departs from a priesthood holder if that man does not walk the path of righteousness. We either excommunicate the wicked priesthood holder, or release them from positions of authority, since we know by revelation that God has ALREADY removed their authority. We do agree with the Catholic Church that ordinances performed by men WITH exoteric authority but without the Godly (esoteric) authority are honored by the institution of the Church, but we also remove the offender post haste as soon as their ungodly deeds are known.

So we have here 2 cases for an apostate church that still exists (at least after Constantine pulled it together again) that has lost its divinely appointed organization and lost its leader's godly (esoteric) authority. And all this with no Pope in sight. I want to make it clear, though, that this apostacy applies to an existing Church, and not to individuals who are sincere and honest in their spiritual pursuits. For example, I am completely convinced that St. John of the Cross (Juan de la Cruz) did in fact see God. I love his books!

I do not think this is incompatible with St. John belonging to an apostate Church. God is who He is, and speaks to whomever He will.

Originally Posted by ceeboo

I do understand the commitment that LDS MUST have in a " total " or " Great " apostasy
but I must reply that it IMHO the complete apostasy claim does not exist.

Total does not mean the institution of the Catholic Church would have to disappear, in the LDS view.

Originally Posted by ceeboo

First, regarding my interpretation of these scriptures. Many of them do indeed speak of apostasy ( people falling away from the Church ) NOT ONE of them speak of a complete apostasy, total darkness of the Church, lights out etc. In addition, when the scriptures do speak of apostasy they tell us that it will be in the end times ( IMHO the end times do not mean the year 200 or 300 or whatever " shortly after the original 12 apostles passed" implies.

I think we can agree to differ on this. Amicably, I'm sure!

Originally Posted by ceeboo

I am not a Biblical scholar ( just a 40 year old sinner like the rest of us ) but since I was asked about my interpretation of scripture, I think I will suggest a few of my own that I feel is directly related to this " total apostasy thread " thus " restoration".
Matthew 16:18, ( Jesus' promise of his Church ) " on this rock ( Peter ) I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 28:20 ( Jesus' words to all of us ) " Behold I will be with you always " ( there are many many more )

Joseph taught that the 'rock' meant revelation from God. Peter had just told Jesus that he knew He was the Christ, then Jesus said it was because of revelation that Peter knew it. I know about the play on words in the Greek 'Cephas' and so forth. I think there are more levels of meaning here than some may acknowledge. Again, I'm sure you disagree and I don't claim that our view is the only justifiable one. Especially if you don't believe Joseph had a clue. So its OK.

Originally Posted by ceeboo

If JS was right about a total apostasy then Jesus was a failure in regard to HIS CHURCH.
Jesus would also be not telling the truth and misleading us with his promises.

Of course Jesus would not mislead anyone, unless someone through lack of the spirit could not understand what He was saying. I hope you agree that if we don't have the Spirit with us, we run the risk of not understanding the things of God?

The LDS view is that Christ set up the perfect Church and it was the failings of individual Church leaders after His departure that caused the failure (apostacy). We all know that Christ would not mislead anyone, but we also know that He allows us to misunderstand Him when our lives or situations prevent our correct understanding. That's what continuing revelation (the 'rock') is there for.

Originally Posted by ceeboo

" What happened to the Church after Peter " IT IS STILL THE SAME CHURCH THAT JESUS PROMISED US ALL WOULD NOT EVER FALL".

And you see our point that it was not the Church or the Pope that was promised to not fall, but revelation, right? I know you don't need to agree, but that is the LDS position.

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Yes indeed it is a FACT that there have been immoral members in the Church and still are there today. Jesus promised the Church would stand to the end and he also taught that there would indeed be good and evil members sitting side by side in HIS CHURCH until that end.

Yes, tares and the wheat.

Originally Posted by ceeboo

I think I will stop at this point to be fair to others who may want to contribute or rebute my crazy Catholic perspective.

Not crazy at all. Thanks for your posts, and I really respect your ability to discuss without rancor. You rock!

HiJolly