Day 3 1 Nephi 13-18, D&C 9-12

[KeithLBrown]

Pam said:
What I am enjoying so far about this reading challenge and discussion is that each of us have our own unique way of discussing what we have read. I'm a "give me an example" kind of person so I like stories and quotes. So you'll just have to put up with them. lol

I love the stories that you have been posting. Excellent examples. Keep them coming.

[KeithLBrown]

Originally Posted by pam

Let me ask this for discussion: Who or what is the great and abominable Church?

Here are a couple things that I have found thus far on this subject:

1. President Boyd K. Packer Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “Who Is Jesus Christ?”, Ensign, Mar 2008, 12–19.

Jacob defined the great and abominable church in these words: “Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God” (2 Ne. 10:16). Nephi said, “Because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, … an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them” (1 Ne. 13:29).

2. Stephen E. Robinson, “Warring against the Saints of God,” Ensign, Jan 1988, 34

The war with Babylon, the great and abominable, began before the world was formed and continues through all ages of time.

The word great in the phrase great and abominable church is an adjective of size rather than of quality and, like the Hebrew gadol or the Greek megas, informs us of the great size of the abominable entity. Secondary meanings might refer to great wealth or power.

The term abominable is used in the Old Testament to describe what God hates, what cannot fail to arouse his wrath. In Daniel, the abomination of desolation is that thing so hateful to God that its presence in the temple causes the divine presence to depart, leaving the sanctuary desolate. In the Old Testament, the terms translated into English as abominable or abomination (Hebrew roots shiqqutz, ta’ab, piggul; Greek Septuagint and New Testament bdelugma) are usually associated with idolatrous worship or gross sexual immorality.

The word church (Hebrew qahal or edah; Greek ekklesia) had a slightly broader meaning anciently than it does now. It referred to an assembly, congregation, or association of people who bonded together and shared the same loyalties. Thus, the term was not necessarily restricted to religious associations; in fact, in Athens the Greeks used the term to denote the legislative assembly of government.

Originally, the term ekklesia, formed from two words meaning call and out, referred to those citizens whom heralds called out or summoned to public meetings. Thus, it was an ideal word to represent the body of individuals whom God “calls out” of the world through the Holy Ghost. The civil dimension of the word appears in Acts 19:32, where assembly in the KJV is a translation of the Greek ekklesia. We must, however, remember that we don’t know the original word on the gold plates that Joseph Smith translated as church. Whatever it was, the Prophet chose to translate it as church instead of as assembly.

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)

From this we can learn that the phrase “great and abominable church” refers to all those who fight against God, not to a specific church.

[pam]

I was flabbergasted once when someone brought this subject up on another thread about this. They mentioned a particular Church in existence today that is that great and abominable Church. I will have to find it again but I have a quote from a GA that discusses this. But I'm headed now to work and won't be home till probably midnight.
But I will look for it.

[ruthiechan]

It's the pride of the world. The greater the pride the greater sin likely resides in someone. I don't see how someone could think that the great and abominable church is a single specific church. . .

What amazes me is Laman and Lemuel. They convince Ishmael's sons that Nephi is trying to be a ruler and that his visions are lies and God talking to him is a lie, but yet they had previously seen angels and God had spoken to them as well! What the? Then later, saying it would have been better to die than to have hardships? What the? But how can anything get better if you're dead?

What also is so amazing is that Nephi never gives up on his older brothers. He doesn't say, fine you guys can go back, we're going to keep going. No, he keeps trying to help them develop faith and wants to keep the whole family together. He is also constantly forgiving them. Being bound for four days is a big deal. When his brothers start to worship him he says no way, when he could have said, yeah, I am your ruler, and here's my law. There was none of that nonsense in Nephi. I wish we could see more of Sam during this time. I am sure he was one of the people who tried to speak for Nephi.

In the Doctrine and Covenants I noticed the repeats from section 6 that Seanette spoke of.
I noticed a few other things, but one thing I feel like I should share here (I don't share everything since some things are a little too personal) is in Section 10: 37. "But as you can not always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous, therefore I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known unto the world concerning the matter."

We really can't tell the difference between the righteous and the wicked unless someone does something glaringly wrong. Even a wicked person can do a kind act or deed. It's their motivations behind it that make the difference. This is another reason why it's so important to have knowledge of the Gospel and the Holy Ghost with you so that we will be able to determine what should be done regarding certain individuals and when and where and with whom to share the Gospel with. It also means we shouldn't assume someone is wicked or beyond hope.

PS: Pam, I like your stories too.