Is this Christlike??

[candyprpl]

Originally Posted by tomk

If your motives were not to hurt then why worry?

Elder Bednar once said, "You cannot give offence. It is the choice of other people to take offence to your words." We have agency. Being offended is a choice, not a reaction we have no control over.

Yes tomk, this is true but I agree with mightynancy -- if someone does 'choose' to take offense at something we said, can't we be charitable enough to try and clear things up?

I used to be super-sensitive and it has taken me many years to realize and be responsible for my choices in regards to my feelings. I do try to be responsible, but we are human and mistakes get made -- both sides. It takes conversation then to clear it up.

Elder Bednar's counsel is perfect and we should all try to heed it -- but it takes time to change one's attitude.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by RainofGold

Did I mention that he sent me a "vote no on prop 8 don't eliminate marriage for anyone." Did I take offense? I respect his stand on this and understand where's his coming from. Do I tell him is not Christ-like to be living a gay life? To have left the church, his priesthood? No, because I think that would be more insensitive of me.

Rain

No I don't think you had mentioned that. Like I said, what's done is done, and I still wouldn't include him on further emails about the subject. It's just not healthy to drive that kind of a wedge between family.

As for whether he was insensitive in sending you the vote no email, there are a couple of ways to look at it.

1) Did he send his first? If so, then yes, I still think it was insensitive on your part.
2) Prop 8 will affect him more than it affects you if it passes. You may disagree, but he is the one who will have his rights restricted or not. That being the case, I think he was more justified in sending you his request that you sending yours.
3) When he sent his email, did you repsond to it? Did you share your feelings at that time? Did you tell him you respect him? Did you have that interchange prior to your sending the email to which he took offense? If not, then I can see his personal justification in his indignance.

And for the record, I would continue to NOT point out that his behavior is un-Christlike. Probably a good idea to avoid that can of worms. However, because I like to play Devil's Advocate...did he ever call himself Christlike? His email to you implies that you have.

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by candyprpl

Yes tomk, this is true but I agree with mightynancy -- if someone does 'choose' to take offense at something we said, can't we be charitable enough to try and clear things up?

I used to be super-sensitive and it has taken me many years to realize and be responsible for my choices in regards to my feelings. I do try to be responsible, but we are human and mistakes get made -- both sides. It takes conversation then to clear it up.

Elder Bednar's counsel is perfect and we should all try to heed it -- but it takes time to change one's attitude.

My only objection to this is that I am not sure it is required of her to take responsibility for things that are not hers to take. I mean, this brother wants her to feel guilty. That is clear to me. She can apologize for inadvertently causing him pain and explain that she didn't mean it personally, but if he is unwilling to see or accept that kind of apology, what can she do? And if there is a history of him becoming offended every time his lifestyle comes up...... well, he has some responsibility to pull his position out of the victimhood ditch.

I am in a situation right now with family members (no doubt this influences my opinion
) and they won't accept an apology unless I cave and feel the way THEY want me to feel and take the position they want me to take. Well, I can't do that and won't do that and it doesn't feel very loving for them to require it of me before we can be friends. And there are many times when I feel just like Rain does. When they have done the very same behavior but fail to take responsibility or to see the history of their own behavior accurately and what feelings they may have inspired. In fact, when I bring that up, they have sudden amnesia!

I think these sibs need to find a way to talk and a new way of respecting each others varied feelings and perspectives, rather than taking care of problems with a sharp jab thru the email. To call her Un-Christlike was manipulative and immature. If he really wanted to work things out and to consider his sister's feelings in the process, I think he would have behaved differently. And I am not even saying his feelings aren't valid. I am just saying that she shouldn't have to take the entire blame and carry all the responsibility to make this thing better. I think at some point you can only do what you can do. And if he is still upset after she has apologized, it is either on him to communicate or his deal to work out on his own.

[ztodd]

I don't know if your brother was really offended or if he was just calling names to try to make his feelings known more, like people do sometimes. If he wasn't really offended then it's not really an issue, unless you take offense now at his reply. For some reason, people sometimes get really offended if someone calls them un-Christlike. While it might give me a minute to pause and reflect on what I did, I don't let it offend me. I hope you don't either.

It's too bad that slinging names back and forth has become a part of the political discussions these days.

[checkerboy]

Originally Posted by candyprpl

Yes tomk, this is true but I agree with mightynancy -- if someone does 'choose' to take offense at something we said, can't we be charitable enough to try and clear things up?

I used to be super-sensitive and it has taken me many years to realize and be responsible for my choices in regards to my feelings. I do try to be responsible, but we are human and mistakes get made -- both sides. It takes conversation then to clear it up.

Elder Bednar's counsel is perfect and we should all try to heed it -- but it takes time to change one's attitude.

I try to be responsible in what I say. I think communication is the key to just about every ill in society today. But it has been my experience that when someone is offended by what you have said or done most of the time a simple apology is never enough for them, they have become bitter and only a complete reversal of your beliefs will satisfy them. For instance, in this situation I would apologize for the email and say that I didn't realize how offensive you would find it. I wouldn't apologize for my stance, though, but I have a feeling that is what the offendee (?) would require to give forgiveness.

Let me leave you with a quote from the great Brigham Young.
"He who takes offense when offense wasn't intended is a fool. He who takes offense when offense was intended is a greater fool"

[RainofGold]

I guess this goes deeper than just the e-mail.
About three years ago my little brother (who is 30 years old) decided to come out and tell all of us seven sisters that he was gay. So you can imagine how many nieces and nephews he has, about 25 all together.

Well my son was only 10 and my daughter 13, my husband didn't want them to find out that their uncle was gay. He said that they were too young and it would be better to wait. When my brother found out that I was the only sister who hadn't told my kids he was very upset with me, I tried explaining the reasons why and he just acted hurt and misunderstood.

So I'm guessing that he took the e-mail more personal. I know is very complicated, his dad still doesn't know about it. Everyone thinks that he is too old and it would best not to tell him.
So is this a lot of drama or what? I guess this prop 8 has more meaning to some than others. But I still stand strong on voting yes on prop 8.

Rainofgold

[Elgama]

I ok I don't know if what I about to say will be offensive its not intended that way but your posts indicate to me and it may just be your style of writing that actually you are very angry with your brother and have some forgiving on your own side to do, a couple of your posts just feel like they are dripping with anger and hate like I say its hard to tell online. But you were thoughtless and whilst he has clearly hurt you in the past I do think a card, flowers, chocolates whatever would go a long way. You are not responsible for how your brother took it, or what he sent you, the way you worded one of your posts was like when my daughter says about her brother I had to kick him because he was slapping me etc - but you are responsible for your own anger and the insensitivity you showed him, I actually think although you are not unchristlike your thoughts and feelings are not being Christlike towards him. And I notice you have only thanked posts that agree with you. I am sorry if I have got more from your posts than you intended or was actually there but I also hope you wanted honest opinions because without them you won't repair things with your brother

Re explaining it to your kids I know its difficult I have a Father with 2 partners, a brother who has been through a couple of live in girls, will sleep with either sex and likes wearing makeup, a Lesbian mother who hates my husband and a homosexual bestfriend - I have opted to be honest with mine children imo prefer people to be honest with them - my daughter is 5 and admittedly a smart cookie, when she asked why my bestfriend didn;t have a wife we explained that we are Latter Day Saints and we understand what Heavenly Father wants for us and Latter Day Saints only ever marry as husband and wife. But Stephen was not a Latter Day Saint and didn't know as much about Heavenly Father as we did so he was looking for a husband. (we have civil partnership's) we also added we were lucky Stephen wasn't looking for a wife or I wouldn't have met her Daddy she seems to accept it - If you are not honest how will you invite your brothers partner along to things? or will you spend 30 years pretending he doesn't exist? and how will your kids feel when they find out they were the last to be told and it possibly won't come from you in a controlled way where you can explain our beliefs:? I just think you have potential for losing trust with your children, and teaches them you may not love them unconditonally or be embarrased by them when they make the wrong decisions, one of my parent has treated me honestly and the other hasn't guess which one I go to when I need help? My Mother has rejected my choice of spouse because he is A male and B LDS - she hates the fact my brother has girlfriends - on this one I understand your brother's hurt very much so. What you do with your children is your decision but doesn't change the fact whilst doing it your brother is hurt and with quite good reason - not just his choice but he has been rejected and treated like a dirty secret - both my parents treat my religious beliefs with embarassment and its horrible. Ellie knows that Granny doesn't speak to us right now because she is silly and doesn't like Daddy, she calls my brother's girlfriend his best bed friend - we also explained because we are Latter Day Saints we get married first etc

-Charley

[RainofGold]

Originally Posted by [B

Elgama[/b];276114]I ok I don't know if what I about to say will be offensive its not intended that way but your posts indicate to me and it may just be your style of writing that actually you are very angry with your brother and have some forgiving on your own side to do, a couple of your posts just feel like they are dripping with anger and hate like I say its hard to tell online. But you were thoughtless and whilst he has clearly hurt you in the past I do think a card, flowers, chocolates whatever would go a long way. You are not responsible for how your brother took it, or what he sent you, the way you worded one of your posts was like when my daughter says about her brother I had to kick him because he was slapping me etc - but you are responsible for your own anger and the insensitivity you showed him, I actually think although you are not unchristlike your thoughts and feelings are not being Christlike towards him. And I notice you have only thanked posts that agree with you. I am sorry if I have got more from your posts than you intended or was actually there but I also hope you wanted honest opinions because without them you won't repair things with your brother

Re explaining it to your kids I know its difficult I have a Father with 2 partners, a brother who has been through a couple of live in girls, will sleep with either sex and likes wearing makeup, a Lesbian mother who hates my husband and a homosexual bestfriend - I have opted to be honest with mine children imo prefer people to be honest with them - my daughter is 5 and admittedly a smart cookie, when she asked why my bestfriend didn;t have a wife we explained that we are Latter Day Saints and we understand what Heavenly Father wants for us and Latter Day Saints only ever marry as husband and wife. But Stephen was not a Latter Day Saint and didn't know as much about Heavenly Father as we did so he was looking for a husband. (we have civil partnership's) we also added we were lucky Stephen wasn't looking for a wife or I wouldn't have met her Daddy she seems to accept it - If you are not honest how will you invite your brothers partner along to things? or will you spend 30 years pretending he doesn't exist? and how will your kids feel when they find out they were the last to be told and it possibly won't come from you in a controlled way where you can explain our beliefs:? I just think you have potential for losing trust with your children, and teaches them you may not love them unconditonally or be embarrased by them when they make the wrong decisions, one of my parent has treated me honestly and the other hasn't guess which one I go to when I need help? My Mother has rejected my choice of spouse because he is A male and B LDS - she hates the fact my brother has girlfriends - on this one I understand your brother's hurt very much so. What you do with your children is your decision but doesn't change the fact whilst doing it your brother is hurt and with quite good reason - not just his choice but he has been rejected and treated like a dirty secret - both my parents treat my religious beliefs with embarassment and its horrible. Ellie knows that Granny doesn't speak to us right now because she is silly and doesn't like Daddy, she calls my brother's girlfriend his best bed friend - we also explained because we are Latter Day Saints we get married first etc

-Charley

Elgama,
I am not angry at my brother, he has done nothing to hurt me or my kids. We spend birthday parties together and our relationship is as good as it was before he became gay. We just don't believe the same things anymore. I have never condemned him for his his lifestyle, or tried to impose my beliefs on him. He grew up in the church and he served a 2 year mission, he went to BUY Hawaii so he has being surrounded by lds most of his life. There's nothing I can tell him about the gospel that he probably doesn't know.

I feel you are judging me for feeling different than you about certain issues. My son was told when he was 13 and my daughter 17 and I feel they were more mature to understand it, and they did. They love their uncle respect him and don't see him as the gay uncle, just their uncle.

As to have my brother and his partner over my house or to join them both for dinner is something that I am not ready to do. You and others are probably going to call me a gay hater for not accepting his lifestyle in my life. But this was his decision not mine, am I not Christ-like for not wanting to be part of that part of his life?

We all choose to react different, some of my sisters open their arms and their houses to both of them. (Their hearts are bigger than mine). They go out places together and that is okay for them. I'm glad that my brother has some of us that back him up the whole way. Am I an evil person for feeling uncomfortable to be part of it?

There is no anger in me, I don't see where you are reading it. We are a very close family, I practically raised my little brother and love him dearly. Do I pray at night for him to return to church? Of course I do. Just like I pray for my husband to become a member of the church someday. I love my husband, even though he doesn't believe in the same things that I do. If he wants to have a drink when we go out for dinner, do I have one so I wont hurt his feelings? No I don't. I respect his decisions just like he respects mine. When he chooses to go and see a rated R movie that I know is not appropriate, I don't go with him and he doesn't get upset with me he understands. See, I want to be part of my husbands life, but when it goes against my beliefs I don't take part of it. Its the same with my brother, I love him but I'm not going to be part of his lifestyle just because I don't want to hurt his feelings. I am being honest and I also don't intent to hurt or offend anyone with this post, if I do I apologize in advance. Just being truthful.

Rainofgold