Need advice, may leave church

[bjw]

A little update...

I got an email from the stake president that said that he wanted to meet with me and my bishop. He said he would have his clerk set up the appointment. He said he hadn't been avoiding me, but that he was under the impression for some reason that I had changed my mind about meeting with him. I'm not sure why though.

I got a phonecall from the head high councilman and he would like to meet with me in person, so I am going to meet him at his house tomorrow night. My former bishop, who also baptised me into the church, stopped by my house last night and we talked for awhile about this. He said he is going to check on this to find out more about it. He feels if this real estate deal really did happen the church is probably not condoning it, but is probably investigating it. He seemed pretty optimistic about the whole thing and said he would get back to me when he found out more about it. He's currently a clerk for the stake presidency, and he has a lot of relatives in SLC. So, I think maybe he can find out something more about it.

We also had a long discussion about some other aspects of the church that I've been having doubts about. I was glad he stopped by and I felt really good about the discussion.

I'll let you know when I find out more and how things are going. Thanks everyone for your concern.

[bjw]

Originally Posted by pam

Okay just my opinion here...take it as being rude or whatever. First this thread is started because of a problem with an Elders Quorum President..so the person decides he might want to leave.

Now we are discussing the problem with the perceived feelings on the Church' financial situation, which is causing doubt again and might have the person leave.

Honestly, are we just looking for a "reason" to justify leaving the Church?

What you say does make sense, and I have been asking myself this question over and over. I was just telling my former bishop that came over and visited me last night, that despite everything I have learned about the church, I can't bring myself to the next step of actually taking off the garments, sending in my resignation letter, etc.

Is that the Spirit or is it just my inner feelings of guilt, I do not know. The good experiences I have had with this church far outweigh the bad, and after all my years of being a Christian I can still say this is by far the best church I have been in. I want the church to be true and don't want these bad things to be true. That is why this has been such a struggle for me. I mean, when I left the Presbyterians I did not look back or even give them a second thought. Leaving this church is much harder because there is so much in it that I love.

[ztodd]

Hi bjw, I was wondering - what is it that you base the truthfulness of the church on?

[pam]

Originally Posted by bjw

What you say does make sense, and I have been asking myself this question over and over. I was just telling my former bishop that came over and visited me last night, that despite everything I have learned about the church, I can't bring myself to the next step of actually taking off the garments, sending in my resignation letter, etc.

Is that the Spirit or is it just my inner feelings of guilt, I do not know. The good experiences I have had with this church far outweigh the bad, and after all my years of being a Christian I can still say this is by far the best church I have been in. I want the church to be true and don't want these bad things to be true. That is why this has been such a struggle for me. I mean, when I left the Presbyterians I did not look back or even give them a second thought. Leaving this church is much harder because there is so much in it that I love.

Then as Moksha recommended..perhaps looking at all the wonderful positive things is what you need to be focusing on. Let yourself be strengthened by those instead of nit picking about some of the other things that REALLY has nothing to do with your eternal salvation.

[beefche]

Originally Posted by bjw

A little update...

I got an email from the stake president that said that he wanted to meet with me and my bishop. He said he would have his clerk set up the appointment. He said he hadn't been avoiding me, but that he was under the impression for some reason that I had changed my mind about meeting with him. I'm not sure why though.

I got a phonecall from the head high councilman and he would like to meet with me in person, so I am going to meet him at his house tomorrow night. My former bishop, who also baptised me into the church, stopped by my house last night and we talked for awhile about this. He said he is going to check on this to find out more about it. He feels if this real estate deal really did happen the church is probably not condoning it, but is probably investigating it. He seemed pretty optimistic about the whole thing and said he would get back to me when he found out more about it. He's currently a clerk for the stake presidency, and he has a lot of relatives in SLC. So, I think maybe he can find out something more about it.

We also had a long discussion about some other aspects of the church that I've been having doubts about. I was glad he stopped by and I felt really good about the discussion.

I'll let you know when I find out more and how things are going. Thanks everyone for your concern.

Just something to think about....don't be surprised if anyone (your bishop, stake president, missionaries, etc.) can find anything at all about this deal. You may not find the answers you are seeking. It's a business deal and just like I may not be able to find all the information on what Donald Trump does and his real estate deals, you too may be unable to obtain information.

Further, it sounds to me that even if you find an answer that is satisfactory to you regarding this particular issue, you will find another issue that is upsetting to you.

I think all of us must understand that there are going to be unpleasant things to deal with in this church. Each of us (and I truly mean that) will have or come across something that doesn't make sense to us or offends us. And we have to choose how we are going to deal with it. So, I suggest you find the reasons WHY to stay in the church and then stick with those reasons no matter what comes.

[its_Chet]

I don't mean to be rude, but I have to take exception with the idea of "learning" that Joseph Smith was some kind of bad person. I'm taking into consideration the pain that's been inflicted on you by people who are supposed to be helping you rather than harming you spiritually, as well as your emotional state after failing the math test, but I just can't help but take it personally when I hear anyone talking poorly about someone I respect as much as Joseph Smith. I feel obliged to clear a few things up.

I never met Joseph Smith, but my joining the Church was chiefly the result of having heard a friend's father bare his testimony of Joseph Smith to me. I was overwhelmed with a sense of awe and wonder, and was strongly convinced that Joseph Smith was everything a faithful Latter Day Saint knows him to be. Additionally, he may have had his own quirks and faults, but, apart from the mistake he made with the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon, I am unaware of any mistake he made that Heavenly Father felt was severe enough to disqualify him as an Apostle of Jesus Christ, or the President of the Church and first Prophet of this, the last dispensation.

Joseph Smith may have found himself in a legal predicament with the Kirtland Safety Society, but my understanding of the matter is that he did not get himself and the Kirtland Safety Society into the mess in which it ended up through any malfeasance on his part, and once he realized the mess the KSS was in, he was stuck between a rock and hard place and there was no easy way out. I believe he did the best anyone in that position could have done.

After the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, there was a period of about two or three weeks in which none of the Kirtland Saints were subject to temptation of any external kind. They all noticed it. Joseph Smith warned them it wasn’t permanent, and that if they were not prepared, when temptation resumed, there would be much iniquity and even apostasy. As to be expected, Joseph was proven right. The apostasy in Kirtland followed not long after, and Apostles of Jesus Christ left the Church, some of them becoming violent mobbers. Even in those days, if you wanted to, you could easily find someone happy to tell you what a rotten person Joseph Smith was, especially if you were someone like the "men" who tried to kill him and Sidney Rigdon in 1832. There has always been someone happy to lie about Joseph Smith and get us to see him the way satan wants us to see him. The reason why is because it would kill our testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ if we can't trust the word of a Prophet, especially one who opens a new dispensation and is required to dispel ancient heresies (and from that perspective, appears to be a heretic himself).

Some revere Joseph Smith, some detest him. So what are you going to do? Who do you trust? As a tie-breaking vote, may I suggest the Holy Spirit? Don't take my word for it, or any other mortal's, unless you want to use it as a hypothesis to present in prayer to Heavenly Father, sincerely and meekly seeking the Holy Spirit's refutation or confirmation of it. And in order to do that, you'll want to make sure you've done all you can to be worthy of the Holy Spirit's presence (as we all).

When one has a strong testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we are shielded from the kind of doubts that you're having. When we disregard the lies of vindictive apostates, and instead listen to the words of the Apostles, we make ourselves able to feel Heavenly Father's undying love for us. You are not happy, and it is plain. This is because your testimony is shrinking and failing. Thomas B. Marsh went through the same thing, and he eventually returned to the Church because he knew it was the only way he could shake the feelings you're having (that, and that the Church was true). You need to care for your testimony, as you would a plant or animal, or as a bodybuilder would care for and exercise his body. You must feed your testimony, and you must exercise it. You must cease feeding your soul poison, like the kind that is so enthusiastically offered by apostates. Those lies, as you have already admitted, bring you sadness and despair. They sicken your soul, much as drinking anti-freeze would sicken your body. Though your soul can't be made to stop existing, it can still be harmed. You have to stop harming it.

One way to stop harming it is to avoid confrontations and contention, so it would be my advice to try to find some way of avoiding anyone in your ward that you feel brings out anger, frustration, resentment, or any other negative emotion in you, at the very least if they do so to the extent that you feel driven to say or do something un-Christlike. You need to purge your soul of all of that which you can. Always remember that you’re really there for the Savior, because of what He did for you, as opposed to being there for yourself or anyone else. Don’t take this the wrong way, but you also need to stop reading anti-Mormon material. The Holy Spirit will confirm truth to you, but if you read anti-Mormon material, it will probably offend the Holy Spirit enough to leave you with only the sorrow and despair you mentioned. That's a red flag that the Holy Spirit is absent. What you want to do is get Him to come back. He most likely won't as long as the anti-Mormon stuff is around, or occupying a spot in your mind. If you own any, I suggest throwing it in the garbage, unless you don’t want to offend the garbage.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is logical and makes perfect sense, but only when all things, or at least enough, are understood. It is incumbent upon us mortal children of God to do the best we can with whatever understanding we have, and the rest we have to take on faith. That's the way it was meant to be. I would reject any "wisdom" that challenges what has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that Joseph Smith DID see the Father and Son, that angels DID minister to him and teach him many things to prepare him to open this dispensation, and that the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Bible are the word of God, as also are the Prophetic words of the Apostles. Granted, they are not always acting in that capacity. They are men, and they are entitled to have their own opinions and philosophies, same as the rest of us. There may come a day when every thought that crosses our minds fits within a clearly defined Gospel frame, but in this day, who we vote for, what car we drive, when we change the filter in our air conditioners, etc. are all choices we are given the freedom to make for ourselves. This is why good people will sometimes say and do things that we may find disagreeable, but not everything one person finds disagreeable about another person is a sin. That is a matter for God to decide.

Brigham Young had a relatively short temper, but he was also a Prophet. He was not perfect. Nobody who ever walked this earth as a mortal was, except for the Savior. Emma Smith was the widow of a murdered husband. They both loved Joseph, though it is well known that Emma was not fond of the idea of plural marriage, and this, as well as other possible personal issues of hers caused tension between her and Joseph. Hyrum Smith tried to smooth this out on occasion. Brigham Young did not have Hyrum's patience, and was more inclined to speak harshly when Emma left the Church and started/joined a splinter sect with Joseph Smith III as its authority. She was called "an elect lady" by the Lord well before that time, and anyhow, if you were to meet and speak to Joseph Smith today, it wouldn't surprise me if he told you that he never stopped loving her and that she had repented and will be with him in the Celestial Kingdom. It's certainly possible, at least.

Brigham Young did other things that showed he was only human. I've heard that if you look at an altar in the tabernacle in St. George, you'll see a dent that was made when Brigham Young slammed his cane on it in anger over something the Saints there weren't doing right. Additionally other General Authorities in this dispensation likewise have had their own faults. J. Golden Kimball is a classic example of this. He had a problem with coffee (before it was viewed as being as rigidly taboo as it is now) and language, and he struggled with it, notwithstanding the fact that he was a very kind and gracious man. The Lord called him to be a seventy. The Lord called Brigham Young to be a Prophet. Lorenzo Snow once said, and in a complimentary way to Joseph Smith, that knowing that Joseph Smith was a Prophet gave him hope, because he knew Joseph Smith well enough to know he had flaws. He saw that you don't have to be perfect to be a Prophet, and if you don't have to be perfect to be a Prophet, you probably don't have to be perfect to make it to the Celestial Kingdom either. Again, this wasn't meant as a dig at Joseph Smith by Lorenzo Snow.

Everyone's got a flaw. Some are easier to see than others. We can't let this cause us to question the Lord's anointed. It is incumbent upon us to trust the Prophets of all ages. If one of them ever attempted to lead us astray, they would pay a heavy price for it. The Lord doesn't expect His Prophets to be perfect. He only expects them to teach perfect doctrine, and, like the rest of us, do their best to practice it.

Bottom line, don't let the behavior of misbehaving Saints or the lies of vindictive apostates distract you from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And if anything in your life brings you contention, or in any other way makes you feel distanced from Heavenly Father, get away from it. Feed your soul only light and truth, and stay away from the lies, distortion, misrepresentations, contentions, and abuse of others. Close yourself off to the servants of satan and make sure all doors are open to the Savior. Pray before each meal and before sleeping. Read scriptures each day. I might hold off on going to the Temple until you can repair your testimony, but that's about it.

Sorry if this sounds preachy.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by pam

... perhaps looking at all the wonderful positive things is what you need to be focusing on. Let yourself be strengthened by those instead of nit picking about some of the other things that REALLY has nothing to do with your eternal salvation.

Bjw, I was thinking today of another situation that was similar to the Arizona land deal and yet members were quickly able adapt to it, and that was building the Draper Temple in a rather inacessible mud-slide location that seemed to be chosen to make it convenient for multi-million dollar home owners and to enrich land developers. Now, everyone I know does not think twice about its location, even driving up hills on narrow streets with icy roads. They accept that the Lord wanted the Temple there. When they thought of it in the grand scheme of things, they were content. Whether the Church bought these properties for too high of price, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Best to ask yourself this question: Does the Church meet my spiritual needs. If it does then that is sufficient.

Speaking of other good things, I saw an article today about the LDS Church and the Catholic Church partnering together to help out with the hunger situation in Central Florida. That has to be one of those positives.

[bjw]

Originally Posted by its_Chet

I am unaware of any mistake he made that Heavenly Father felt was severe enough to disqualify him as an Apostle of Jesus Christ, or the President of the Church and first Prophet of this, the last dispensation.

This is exactly my point. Most members are unaware of the bad things he did during his life. I think everyone should read the official History of the Church before joining. This is not anti-mormon material, and it has much of the problematic things in it.

For instance, we had one person in a Gospel Doctrine class that was againt any kind of war, and said that nobody should go fight in a war no matter what. He then brought up Joseph Smith and said that Joseph Smith would not even fight back when he faced mob persecution. Thankfully, the teacher knew the true history and mentioned that Joseph Smith killed two of the people in the mob with a gun right before he was shot at Carthage Jail.

Anyway, my testimony is in Jesus Christ, not in any prophet. I wonder if maybe the Holy Ghost isn't showing me these things because he wants me to leave this church. Most of the things I have learned about Joseph Smith are not lies, and can be substantiated by first-hand sources, some of which are pro-Mormon.

There are a lot of good Christians out there that will have nothing to do with this church because of its questionable history. If I would have known what I know now before I was baptized I would have not joined the church. I can still believe in Jesus Christ and be a good Christian, but reject any organization that does things that are against God's will. It's what God wants that I want to do, not because something makes me feel good, but because I know that I am obeying God and not supporting something that is sinful.

[bjw]

Originally Posted by Moksha

Whether the Church bought these properties for too high of price, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Best to ask yourself this question: Does the Church meet my spiritual needs. If it does then that is sufficient.

Speaking of other good things, I saw an article today about the LDS Church and the Catholic Church partnering together to help out with the hunger situation in Central Florida. That has to be one of those positives.

It matters a great deal if they are paying themselves the high price and pocketing the money.

The church is definitely not meeting my spiritual needs if it is giving money to people like Ira Fulton or not being perfectly honest about its history.

$72 million would solve all the hunger problems in most of the third world countries, not to mention feed a lot of people here in the states.

[bjw]

Originally Posted by pam

Then as Moksha recommended..perhaps looking at all the wonderful positive things is what you need to be focusing on. Let yourself be strengthened by those instead of nit picking about some of the other things that REALLY has nothing to do with your eternal salvation.

Which is why we have to ask ourselves the question about the restored Gospel. Is it possible that God could still restore his church with the cast of characters we see in the restoration? In the past I've reconciled this by saying that it would take a person like Joseph Smith for God to really get through to, someone that already believed in the supernatural, seer stones, freemasonry/masonic legends, etc. These things were commonplace in the "burnt over" district and Joseph Smith's environment. I like to think that these were the only type of people that would have believed in the elements of the restoration and that God knew what he was doing when he chose them. Joseph Smith and others had a free-will and so disobeyed God on many occasions, but God still knew they were the type of people who would take the restoration seriously and set the church up as he wanted.

One thing my friend that used to be a bishop said was that many in the church did not truly understand the doctrine of polygamy, and so some marriages were done that shouldn't have happened. Could this be part of God's wisdom? God knew that a righteous posterity would have to be raised up, and this could have been the reason, but was abused by many in the church. That may be the case with everything else, God gives commandments, man messes things up with his sins, and then it has to be changed. This could be, and its one reason I'm struggling a lot, because the church could still be true, even with some "untrue" elements.

It's definitely something to think about.