Need advice, may leave church

[bjw]

Originally Posted by ztodd

Hi bjw, I was wondering - what is it that you base the truthfulness of the church on?

Since I already had a strong faith in Jesus Christ before joining this church, I do not believe the truthfulness of Jesus Christ depends on the truthfulness of the church. Rather, since OD-1 says that a prophet can never lead us astray, the truthfulness of the church hinges on the truthfulness of the prophet and those that the church believes have been appointed to run it by the Lord. Therefore, if it can be shown that even one of these prophets are not what they claim to be, the whole thing collapses like a house of cards.

I base my testimony in Jesus Christ on the Holy Ghost. However, when it comes to the church, I have to make sure I don't rely too much on feelings alone that these men are telling the truth. I've had warm-fuzzy feelings about some movies I've gone to see, and even with some music I've listened to. Your feelings can be fooled. Therefore, we have to test the spirits like it says in the Bible. We know if prophets are not up to the biblical standard of prophets, then they are false. Even prophets have faults, but there are standards that all must uphold.

[skippy740]

Please read my signature:

[ztodd]

Originally Posted by bjw

Since I already had a strong faith in Jesus Christ before joining this church, I do not believe the truthfulness of Jesus Christ depends on the truthfulness of the church.

I agree with ya on that.

Rather, since OD-1 says that a prophet can never lead us astray, the truthfulness of the church hinges on the truthfulness of the prophet

So far so good.

and those that the church believes have been appointed to run it by the Lord.

Meh, maybe not so much. Remember we're talking about what is the deciding factor of whether the church is true or not- what will make or break it. As we get "farther down the chain" from the prophet, it's not tied in to that so much- especially in isolated cases like this.

Therefore, if it can be shown that even one of these prophets are not what they claim to be, the whole thing collapses like a house of cards.

I dunno... it's like you're kind of reaching for any reason you can find to get out.

Ira Fulton's not the prophet.

I base my testimony in Jesus Christ on the Holy Ghost.

That's awesome- you are right on with this.

However, when it comes to the church, I have to make sure I don't rely too much on feelings alone that these men are telling the truth.

??? Without knowing for sure what you mean by "feelings alone"...
Are you saying the Holy Ghost won't tell you the truthfulness of the church, the same way that He tells you the truth of Jesus Christ?

Is this where the problem lies- that you don't (or won't, or can't?) believe Moroni's promise - that the Holy Ghost will tell you the truth of all things?

I've had warm-fuzzy feelings about some movies I've gone to see, and even with some music I've listened to.
Your feelings can be fooled. Therefore, we have to test the spirits like it says in the Bible. We know if prophets are not up to the biblical standard of prophets, then they are false. Even prophets have faults, but there are standards that all must uphold.

It is good to watch and test against the scriptures to determine what things are right and wrong. Nothing wrong with that. Again, I think you're right on with this. The only issue at hand here is whether our prophet was involved in this, and whether it leads us astray as a church.

So now I wonder, what are you looking for? A reason to stay, or a reason to go?

[ztodd]

Originally Posted by bjw

The article Rico provided is pretty much dead on.

Ira Fulton was bankrupt, about to go under. He sits on our church's finance committee, and structured a deal where he would pay himself double what the land was worth out of hard-earned tithing funds. When a church member is bankrupt I can understand giving the person groceries, paying their light bill, maybe even finding them a new apartment, but giving them a $30+ million kickback over the value of a piece of property is completely out of the question. Also, keep in mind this is a deal we know about, what about the ones that occur that we don't know about?

I found this a few days ago on a site that wasn't even related to Mormonism, and then I searched for it and found that MADB and Mormon Discussions had discussed it in some threads as well. This is blatant fraud, and no church that is headed by Jesus Christ would pull a shady deal like this. This, compounded with all the other things I mentioned in earlier posts, is making me think more and more that this church is just a manmade institution, designed to make those at the top rich, such as Ira Fulton. Fulton donated $20 million to BYU back when GBH was prophet, and there is no evidence that Monson and others did not side with Fulton on this deal.

So of course you like to look at the glass as half-full, right? Just kiddin man- but why would you choose to believe than President Monson has done something wrong, just there's no evidence that he didn't? That doesn't make any sense to me

To top it all off I've been trying to get an appointment with my stake president, whose not only been ignoring me himself, but his counselors, clerks, etc. will not give me an appointment with him. I've been trying to get him ever since the stuff started in the OP. So, I sent out e-mails to all members of the bishopric and stake presidency, including the clerks as well as the stake patriarch. I told them all to please try to get an appointment for me to talk to the stake president. I'm going to tell the stake president everything I've found out about and I'm going to see if I can get some kind of explanation about it, especially the Fulton deal. If they refuse to explain it or can't explain it, and I do feel they owe me an explanation, then I'm sending my resignation letter to Salt Lake.

They do, huh? You are a curious fellow dear boy. Please tell why you feel they owe you this.

In the mean time, I am not attending any worship services or the temple until they get back to me and I can discuss all of my problems with the stake president.

You're really crying out for attention here. I pray and hope that your friends in the church will be able to be there for you. We're always here.

I do appreciate the encouragement you guys have provided though. This has really been a tough time for me.

Yeah, I can see it's been tough. I hope things are getting a little better?

.

[pam]

If I would have known what I know now before I was baptized I would have not joined the church. I can still believe in Jesus Christ and be a good Christian, but reject any organization that does things that are against God's will.

Kind of a slippery slope there. If I were to take this at face value..sounds to me like you are saying the Church is a farce.

[WillowTheWhisp]

If I would have known what I know now before I was baptized I would have not joined the church.

So are you saying that you did not join the church because you had a testimony of the truthfulness of the restored Gospel?

Or are you saing that the failings of men outweigh the truthfulness of the restored Gospel?

[BenRaines]

For a perfect church organization to exist it would have to have only perfect people in it. Since we are all sinners and working towards perfection there will be mistakes made.

Good luck in your pursuit of the perfect church, organization or if it be no church at all and just be a good Christian. There are Sundays I wish to be just a good Christian and stay home, watch a ball game, go to the mountains and commune with God, catch a few fish, ah but I have a mission to show Christ I do love him by attending church and serving others my whole life.

Ben Raines

[bjw]

Pam and Willow the Wisp:
I suppose on the flipside that sometimes it may be good for someone to not have all the answers at once. I know there were some doctrines of the restored gospel that I would not have accepted had I known them prior to my baptism. However, later on I did not have as much of a problem with them. If church history could be detrimental to a testimony, maybe its better that people not know a lot of it until their testimony is strong, then it won't matter to them. However, I am still of the philosophy that it is better to disclose everything so people can make an informed decision. Even when longtime members learn things I think it would be better that they heard it from the church first rather than antimormon sources, that way it won't be as much of a shock later on.

[pam]

The history of the Church makes no difference to me at all. It's the doctrine that I hold on to.

[its_Chet]

Originally Posted by bjw

This is exactly my point. Most members are unaware of the bad things he did during his life. I think everyone should read the official History of the Church before joining. This is not anti-mormon material, and it has much of the problematic things in it.

For instance, we had one person in a Gospel Doctrine class that was againt any kind of war, and said that nobody should go fight in a war no matter what. He then brought up Joseph Smith and said that Joseph Smith would not even fight back when he faced mob persecution. Thankfully, the teacher knew the true history and mentioned that Joseph Smith killed two of the people in the mob with a gun right before he was shot at Carthage Jail.

Anyway, my testimony is in Jesus Christ, not in any prophet. I wonder if maybe the Holy Ghost isn't showing me these things because he wants me to leave this church. Most of the things I have learned about Joseph Smith are not lies, and can be substantiated by first-hand sources, some of which are pro-Mormon.

There are a lot of good Christians out there that will have nothing to do with this church because of its questionable history. If I would have known what I know now before I was baptized I would have not joined the church. I can still believe in Jesus Christ and be a good Christian, but reject any organization that does things that are against God's will. It's what God wants that I want to do, not because something makes me feel good, but because I know that I am obeying God and not supporting something that is sinful.

With respect, Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, and I have that directly from the Holy Spirit. I'm sure he made some mistakes because he was only human. That does not shake my faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which I would only have disjointed fragments of were it not for the ministry of Joseph Smith.

I always thought it was common knowledge that Joseph Smith fired out the door in the Carthage Jail at the mob that attacked him and the others. But I've heard this mentioned before as if it were somehow incriminating on Joseph's part (not saying you're doing that now, or that you aren't either). My response to that has always been, “Let's see what you do when you're trapped in a room on the second floor of a building that is surrounded by several hundred bloodthirsty savages, all of them armed, and some of them having just kicked in the door to your room after having shot your brother, your lifelong best friend, in the face and chest, after they've shot another of your friends to pieces, and are about to kill another of your friends. Let's see whether or not you find it appropriate to pick up a pistol and try to defend yourself and your remaining associates.” As far as I'm concerned, Joseph Smith saved the lives of John Taylor and Willard Richards. And even if he didn't, I'm sure it's not easy to remain calm when you're being attacked by a mob of that size and you're trapped and surrounded. Anyone would be justified for fighting for his life in that situation.

Further, if what Joseph did was so bad, I wonder why God would have caused so much freakish suffering amongst those who killed him, like the one mobber (can't remember his name), who developed a bizarre skin disease that resulted in a neat vertical line down the middle of his face, with the skin on one side of it decaying and falling off down to the dry bone, including the eye, while the other side remained intact. And that's just the one that I can remember reading about.

Joseph was absolutely right to fire that pistol. My wife is a descendant of Cyrus Wheelock, the man who smuggled it in to Joseph, and for that one reason alone, I tell my children they should be honored to call him an ancestor.

My testimony is in my Father in Heaven, my Savior, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit who reveals them and all other truth to me. I revere all Prophets, of all dispensations, for the contributions to the Gospel that they have made and their efforts to make it known. This is why I so greatly respect Joseph Smith, because so much of the Gospel would be lost were it not for all the sacrifices he made, all the courage and faith he demonstrated, and for the way he persevered and endured to the end, no matter how persecuted he was, or by whom. Likewise, I admire Peter. I admire Stephen. I admire Moses. I admire Moroni. I admire countless other Prophets. I do not worship them, but they taught the truths He commanded them to, and I would not truly know Him otherwise.

You said that when you heard these bad things about the Church that it broke your heart (maybe not your exact words, but I'm sure I get the picture). That's not how the Holy Spirit works. You weren't shown these things. It sounds like, based on what you've said, that you sought them out. The Prophets have encouraged us to avoid reading anti-Mormon materials not because they're true, but because when we read the lies of an embittered apostate, unless we know the full background to their allegations, we may be tempted to believe them, or to question the truth. I have found that every accusation I've ever heard made against the Church or any of its Prophets is false. I dug for the truth, and the Prophets were ultimately vindicated. Too many people will abandon their faith and leave the Church instead of looking deeper into the story.

I don't intend to sound mean, rather only to defend what I hold sacred, and to dispel what I believe to be false impugnment. I understand that you're relying primarily on documents such as the History of the Church to make your claims. I have no doubt that the History of the Church is an accurate record. I am also not personally troubled if you find it disturbing. It is a very common thing in this world for two people to see the same event and perceive it differently. We all view reality through a prism. It seems to me that the negative experiences you've had with individuals in your Ward have contributed to the makeup of your particular prism, and that as a result, when you read things like the History of the Church, you perceive fault in places where someone like myself would not see it, even though we might both read the exact same words. The way I see it, those negative experiences have colored your prism, and it's been reinforced by inaccurate perceptions of what you've read in the History of the Church. If you want to find fault, you will, even when you're looking in the same place others have when they did not find fault.

Joseph Smith has been accused of a lot of things over the years. I chalk it all up to lies, misunderstandings, distortions, and overall, a sustained effort by satan to lead us away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which Joseph Smith played a tremendously important part in bringing to light.

The Holy Spirit has not shown Joseph to be a bad person. The Holy Spirit is not present when you get negative feelings like the kind you described upon viewing Joseph Smith as a bad person, fallen Prophet, what have you. Those negative feelings come from unclean spirits, the same ones who tempt you to think ill of the Lord's anointed. The same ones who cajoled the mobbers into murdering two innocent men of God on June 27, 1844. Panic, despair, fear, anger, sorrow - those are evidence of the promptings or proximity of unclean spirits. The Holy Spirit will bring you peace, joy, love, confidence, and courage when He confirms the truth to you, and your own words make the opposite to be the case in regards to your current view of the Church of Jesus Christ. Even when He rebukes me for my sins, the Holy Spirit is still gentle, and merciful, never mean or harsh.

I don't mean to condemn you or accuse you. I have my own faults, and am not prepared to have them placed under the spotlight. But I, like Joseph Smith, am able to be human, with faults and imperfections, and still hold the Priesthood after the order of the Son of God. I very strongly encourage you to give Joseph, Brigham, and anyone else you see in a bad light the benefit of the doubt. I encourage you to assume that maybe you don't know the whole story, or clearly understand why some things that were done took place. I encourage you to assume the context to the story may be greater and deeper than it appears, and maybe what seems beyond justification is, in fact, justifiable. Remember Abraham and Isaac on Mt. Moriah. Remember Nephi and Laban. It may be easy to condemn Abraham and Nephi, but in both cases, they only did (or almost did) what they were commanded to do by God.

I defy anyone to sincerely watch the next General Conference and then tell me that those General Authorities are not men of God. I defy anyone to tell me that they do not hold the Priesthood after the order of the Son of God, which they can trace back to the Savior Himself, through Joseph Smith, among others. The Church is true, the evidence is easy to find for anyone who knows how to look. The Holy Spirit bares record of this, and anyone who is able to discern His "voice" will attest. A man can lie or be deceived or speculate. A book can contain inaccuracies, misrepresentations, or lies. But the Holy Spirit cannot lie.

I believe you know what I'm saying, and I'll leave it at that, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.