Mormon Women, Prozac And Therapy

[pushka]

I hope nobody is offended by my reprinting of this article, which I thought was pertinent to this section of the forum, in that so many LDS women come here for advice on their family situations, and are advised to seek help from LDS counsellors.

I must admit that I was astonished by the things revealed in this report, about the doubts in the minds of the LDS women interviewed, and even more astonished that the writer of the report is still a practising LDS man, as far as I'm aware...

Here's the link as it is a long article:

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/prozac.htm

I don't know if the website it originates from is considered as Anti Mormon on here, if that is the case then I apologise as I've just clicked the link from another source, not directly from the website!!

[Aristotle]

Thank you for posting the website to that very long article, pushka. I read it in its entirety, and have found much of it to be valid...not that any of it is invalid. I can only validate the things I have seen and experienced, and the mentality and behavior and treatment of women fits. (Been there, done that.) I was told personally by someone in a leadership capacity, that nearly every woman in my ward is on Prozac. Very sad, isn't it? Those of us who are not on Prozac, have remained active in the gospel, but not active in the Church, for our own welfare and sanity. A friend gave me a book about the early start of the Church, and how powerful the women in the Church were in those days...even giving priesthood blessings. Personally, I don't believe that Heavenly Father or Heavenly Mother look well upon or take lightly this treatment of women. We know that, according to scripture (paraphrasing), 'it is the nature of most men that once they get a little power, it goes to their head, thereby exercising unrighteous dominion, and amen to the priesthood.' Although, I have seen women bullied by men bullying other women into submission by using guilt to control them. A book I would highly recommend (if it is still in print) is: If The Gospel Is True, Why Do I Hurt So Much? Help For Dysfunctional Latter-Day Saint Families, by Carroll Hofeling Morris. I would also recommend books and tapes by Dr. John Turpin. Many of these materials may be found in Deseret Industries. I would just like to add that regardless of all of the negativity, I believe that the Church is true; however, from sad experience, we know that some of the people are not. I support the brethren (and sisters) of the Church in righteousness only...which is all that I am required to do.

- Mrs. A

[SarahMaree]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Jan 7 2006, 01:25 PM
I'd like to ask for opinions on this article from LDS women.* I'm thinking about sending it to a friend, but I don't want her to think of it as an attack on her faith.* What do you ladies think?

[snapback]88539[/snapback]

I was very interested in reading this article because my mother has suffered from depression for years from being in an abusive relationship with her husband, as well has having to raise three kids with no support. While I'm not totally convinced it's a male-dominated atmosphere that caused her depression, I know that the church played a significant role in her development.

I mentioned in a previous post that she spent years being physically and emotionally abused by her husband. She asked for help and advice from three separate bishops, and their only response was to "try to be a better wife". They told her to pray, to follow the commandments, and to follow the advice and example of other wives in the ward. All but one or two of the women in the Relief Society preferred to look the other way and not deal with the mess.

Years later, my mom finally got the emotional and financial strength to leave her husband. She is active in the church and has always remained faithful to the gospel, but has been on antidepressants for years.

As a female, I've always sensed the stereotype of the proper Mormon girl, and now of the proper Mormon woman. Girls in the youth program who didn't "fit in" were essentially outcast by both the boys and the other girls, despite any kind of personality or strengths that they could add. My sister and I were often the outcasts, and I admit that we finally gave up trying to socialize with the other girls. We remained faithful to the gospel, but we hated going to church and pretending that we were happy there. My mom saw this too in a bishop's wife who had been a popular member for as long as we had been in the ward with her (almost 20 years), and who broke down to my mom two years ago saying that she's always been miserable and couldn't wait to leave.

I don't know what it is exactly that causes this "peer pressure" and how these stereotypes of what a perfect Mormon woman should be came about. I understand the effects of the pressures though, and I know how frustrating it is to love the gospel so much and to feel that you don't have an outlet to express it where you are accepted for who you are. You can't be a happy wife, mother, or even a happy person when you are constantly hiding your true personality, hopes, and ambitions.

[Josie]

Soul Searcher,

To me it is a huge attack. I feel it was very biased and taken from a very small section of women. I thought it was very interesting that in the very beginning it was particularily brought out that this was addressed to LDS women that were lesbians, LDS women temple married to men that were homosexuals among others. First of all, the Church neither supports or condones either of these situations. We do not believe in being "Gay" in any form or accepting it and anyone that has been through the temple and found to be doing something like this has action taken against them by the Church.

Secondly, women are told to follow their husbands in righteousness, not inrighteousness. The Church condemns very strongly men being abusive, or anyone else as far as that goes, to anyone else, and that does not just mean physically.

We live in a very materialistic world today, and personally, I think our desire for more than what we have has alot to do with our psychological soundness. When we stop seeking God and start seeking the things of this world, we usually bring sorrow and pain(emotionally) upon ourselves.

The Church teaches the deviness of woman hood and what a special blessing it is. The Church holds womanhood very high and teaches its men to take care of their women and not to run them down or be abusive to them.

Yes, the Priesthood, held only by worthy males, is the authority that leads the church. But it is a shared responsiblity with the women in many ways. Basically the women run the Relief Society, Young Women's organization, and Primary under direction of the Priesthood, which spends alot of time listening to the sisters. I know that to be a fact, because I have worked in all of the organizations. The Relief Society is the oldest women's organization in the United States that is still in existence.

The Church is true, its teachings are true, it has a very real prophet at its head this day, and it serves its members well, when they live its teachings and have faith in God. It is when we or those around us do not follow the teachings of God that our lives are set in disarray.

I am not saying that every woman in the Church that takes psychological counseling or is on antidepressants is so because of sin or not doing what she is suppose to, likewise for the men. Many things cause depression in our lives, not just our doing things we are not suppose too. Sometimes it is people around us, sometimes it is a tragic accident or happening, the loss of someone close to us, and many other things.

I have been on anti depressant medications and taken therapy for a time. It had nothing to do with my being a Mormon, except that I knew what was right and what I should be doing and what my husband at that time should be doing, and knowing that our lives were not in sink with what I believed. When the problem was removed from my life and I was able to go back to church and do what I knew I was suppose to, I was off medications and functioning well on my own without professional counseling. It was not the Church, but unhappiness in my families lives caused by someone not honoring his Priesthood and doing what he was suppose too.

Also, any Latter-day Saint that knows the beliefs knows that the Lamanite people are considered a very blessed people and the Church membership is thrilled over their wide acceptance of the Church. In the Book of Mormon, actually, in many ways the Lamanites were more righteous than the Nephites and when they battled for years and killed one another off, except for a very few lamanites, the Nephites were as wicked as any lamanite that had ever walked. When we teach Church doctrine, it needs to be doctrine and not hear say or the doctrines of man. It needs to be God's law.

I know this was long, but it is honest and how I feel.

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Jan 7 2006, 12:25 PM
I'd like to ask for opinions on this article from LDS women.* I'm thinking about sending it to a friend, but I don't want her to think of it as an attack on her faith.* What do you ladies think?

[snapback]88539[/snapback]

I sent this article to a friend of mine who is a psychologist and an active LDS member, but have not heard her analysis yet. I don't know how accurate or from what perspective this article was written, but it did seem somewhat biased to me. The information pertaining to women's emotional and mental health is very accurate, and while the brethren are counseled time and again to respect their wives, abuse (both emotional and physical) must still occur, otherwise there would be no need for the counsel. All is well with the women in the Church who are active, do their duty with a smile, and stuff their feelings. But I have found that there is no "sharing" allowed of feelings. This was quite evident, when a PhD, an active member of the Church, was allowed to present a program for abused sisters, with the directive from the stake president that "no sharing" was to be allowed. Shortly thereafter, when truths of abuse surfaced, the program was discontinued. Personally, I know of incidences of abuse in the Church, when I worked as a secretary for a psychologist. Many more people than we possibly know are unhappy in the Church, and the major reason they are unhappy is because of unrighteous dominion practiced amongst both men and women from positions of authority. Save the prophet alone, I don't readily trust everyone in the Church...they must prove to me that they are worthy of my trust, by not violating it.

- Mrs. A

[Snow]

This article is a bunch of tripe (that's cow guts).

...not because there aren't some interesting observations and intelligent insight - there are; and not because what the author writes doesn't ring true with the actual real life experiences of some Mormons - undoubted it does.

No, there are other reasons that this is tripe and here's a few:

The author titles his name to the article - Ph.D. That's not by accident. Right at the tops of the page he is telling us that he is expert and therefore his presentation is going to be professional and adhere to certain standards of academic honesty. Bull - he's a linguist, not a sociologist or psychologist. He studies languages and has no expertise in the field in which he is writing. It wasn't by accident he made sure we knew he had a Ph.D. It was just deceptive - he doesn't come clean until the very last sentence of the article. That being said - it doesn't make his information or conclusions inherently wrong - but what you have is more along the lines of an opinion written in a message board rather than professional researched material.

He makes wild claims that he can't or won't substantiate. For example he says: "Utah residents currently use more antidepressant drugs, notably Prozac® (fluoxetine hydrochloride, introduced in 1987), than the residents of any other US state. This problem is clearly, closely and definitely linked to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Approximately 70% of Utahns are Mormons."

There's two problems with that: 1. It gives an intended impression that Utah residents and specifically Mormons not only take more Prozac than non-Mormon but also that they are depressed more than non-Mormons and 2. The cause of the higher incidence of depression is the LDS Church. It doesn't surprise me but it might surprise the unwary and uninformed reader - the exact type of reader toward whom the Kent Ponder, linguist, directed his message - that item #1. is false. There is real scientific information available that shows the depression rate in women in the Church is NOT higher than women outside the Church. As to item #2... again not surprisingly, his proof is nil, zilch, nada, other than he says so. Sure he gives his reasons why he thinks his opinion is a good one but no evidence that is in reality true.

Now - my life is full of women - besides having 3 daughters I am surrounded by women. I have a wife, a mother and 4 sisters. All six of them have been or are, housewifes, mothers, and working professionals, from healthcare professionals to executives to vice-presidents of large national companies. From what I can tell the dynamics the author talks about are alien to them (the women in my life). The author's daughter said: "It's so counter-intuitive for women, so full of gender unfairness and contradictions. The Church's attitude, 'we'll tell you what you're worth' isn't self-worth. If a woman has any sense of self-worth, it attacks her on all fronts. And to have any real difference of opinion means having to go against every person in your [church] community." Beside that not making too much grammatical sense it's is just plain idiotic. And, the author didn't use it to describe his daughter (and her poor thinking skills). Rather he used it to illustrate his perceived defect in the Church. He (though his daughter) represents that if a woman has self-worth the Church attacks her on all fronts. BULL. The women in my life (at least 5 of 6) are all very connected to the Church, have high but healthy self-esteem, have college degrees and advance degrees, are very confident and accomplished individual and a big part of their make-up is from the Church, their standing in it and the principles that they have derived from the Church - I know because we talk about these things. The author's victim daughter says that to have a difference of opinion means to go against every person in the community. Woe to the poor victim and what nonsense. I have mostly a contrary opinion on - well - everything and I don't whine about the Church or other's not agreeing with me. Nor do I derive my self esteem/worth from the Church (neither do the women in my life). If I want to be esteemed by myself or others, I do estimable (estimable) acts. If I am unhappy with my thoughts and behaviors, I change my thoughts and behaviors. I certainly don't blame by lot in life on others, especially the Church.

etc,
etc,
etc.

[Aristotle]

What I have observed as a member of the Church is different, perhaps, from what others have observed. My observations are based upon personal experiences. We all walk in different shoes...the author suggested "narrow" shoes. (That being the case, no wonder my feet hurt. LOL) We are counseled to make righteous judgements, but how can we judge righteously if we can't see into another person's heart?

- Mrs. A

[Josie]

Aristotle

This was quite evident, when a PhD, an active member of the Church, was allowed to present a program for abused sisters, with the directive from the stake president that "no sharing" was to be allowed.

I can understand the Church not wanting people sharing in open public what they have been through.* That causes hurt feelings, condemnation, maybe of members in that congregation, and maybe even leading to arguing and bringing out family issues before the whole group.

We as sisters have Relief Society Presidents, our visiting teachers, and our Bishops we can talk to about our feelings and what we have been through.* There are appropriate channels to deal with those feelings without exposing the one with the feelings to more hurt, maybe even there in public.

Personally, I know of incidences of abuse in the Church, when I worked as a secretary for a psychologist.* Many more people than we possibly know are unhappy in the Church, and the major reason they are unhappy is because of unrighteous dominion practiced amongst both men and women from positions of authority.*

I also know that these things happen in the Church, but they also happen outside the Church.* That does not mean the Church is the cause of the problems or in anyway condones them.* If fact they are such a crime before God that the Church vigourously teaches against them.* But they are not the result of being a member of the Church, they are a result of people doing what they know they are not suppose too.

The Church is true and perfect, the people in it are not perfect and the Church should not be blamed for the wickedness that men do!

[Aristotle]

Originally posted by Josie@Jan 7 2006, 04:06 PM

I can understand the Church not wanting people sharing in open public what they have been through.* That causes hurt feelings, condemnation, maybe of members in that congregation, and maybe even leading to arguing and bringing out family issues before the whole group.

We as sisters have Relief Society Presidents, our visiting teachers, and our Bishops we can talk to about our feelings and what we have been through.* There are appropriate channels to deal with those feelings without exposing the one with the feelings to more hurt, maybe even there in public.

I also know that these things happen in the Church, but they also happen outside the Church.* That does not mean the Church is the cause of the problems or in anyway condones them.* If fact they are such a crime before God that the Church vigourously teaches against them.* But they are not the result of being a member of the Church, they are a result of people doing what they know they are not suppose too.

The Church is true and perfect, the people in it are not perfect and the Church should not be blamed for the wickedness that men do!

[snapback]88573[/snapback]

Please understand, I am not ridiculing or blaming the Church. I agree, there are members (even leaders) within the Church who are not always true to the gospel. We see this demonstrated when members/leaders are disciplined in a Church court.

We were not discussing what goes on outside of the Church; we are discussing Mormon women on Prozac...and the reasons they take Prozac.

There are far too many examples given to dismiss this as a problem in the Church. This is the reason that our prophet continues to warn the brethren.

The stake program was discontinued because some of the brethren guilty of this behavior had been exposed.

- Mrs. A

[Josie]

Mrs. Aristotle,

I agree with you and understand where you are coming from. But the article made it sound like this was a greater problem in the Church than anywhere else and I was trying to point out, like Snow, that it is not just in the Church and I don't think the Church can be considered the cause of the problem.