Trusting Priesthood Leadership

[Ray]

krowe,
Your testimony has been that some <people> are being severely threatened, and that because it is either too embarrassing, or too difficult, or too unbelievable, the problem wasn’t or isn’t being addressed.

Is that all you have to say for the record?

I’m curious to know what you meant by “severely threatened”, or what the problem really was, and how you could know whether or not action was or wasn’t taken to solve the problem as you saw it.

And btw, while you are not personally responsible for the comments made by other people concerning the worthiness of people in leadership positions in the Church, the few comments you did make fed the idea that our leaders should not be trusted, which I suppose makes you feel happy since you started this thread with your own doubts.

[krowe]

krowe,
Your testimony has been that some <people> are being severely threatened, and that because it is either too embarrassing, or too difficult, or too unbelievable, the problem wasn’t or isn’t being addressed.

Is that all you have to say for the record?

I’m curious to know what you meant by “severely threatened”, or what the problem really was, and how you could know whether or not action was or wasn’t taken to solve the problem as you saw it.

And btw, while you are not personally responsible for the comments made by other people concerning the worthiness of people in leadership positions in the Church, the few comments you did make fed the idea that our leaders should not be trusted, which I suppose makes you feel happy since you started this thread with your own doubts.
[/b]

First it does not make me feel happy, I did not start this so that other people would not trust their leaders. I grew up with a "possibly" idealized version of who a church leader is and that ideal came face to face with a cold reality.

By severely threatened I mean my life, my health and that of my children was being threatened by my husband. My bishop told me to work it out and that he thought hitting me sometimes was not cause enough for him to get involved or to hold a church court or even take his temple recommend away because my husband seemed sorry about it anyway. I got a restraining order which was broken many, many times, I got more restraining orders, he went to jail. The bishop called to see if I would get him out of jail because he thought it wasn't such a good place to be for my husband. I told him it was the safest I had felt in 7 years and I would not get him out. He was in jail for attempting to kill and kidnap me and my 2 year old daughter. Several church leaders urged me not to get a divorce, but to work with my husband. They didn't really seem to care if I would have all of my limbs still attached when I was trying to "work" with him.

I currently have a wonderful bishop who puts in lots of his time, effort and prayers to do the right thing. My heart goes out to the "priesthood leader" who wrote in to this forum. It sounds like he tries his best and his friend did the right thing even though it cost him dearly. I understand how doing the right thing can often be very costly.


The bishop I refer to in dealing with my ex is a good man who did the wrong thing, maybe from ignorance, maybe from fear, embarassment or even just a lack of time and energy to deal with such a serious problem. Maybe he has hit his wife and didn't want the same type of condemnation to come to him. (yes, I know of bishops who have or do abuse, even hit their wives).

My problem is that I have managed through a lot of struggle to stay in the church, keep my testimony and continue to work on my own faults. But even when I have a wonderful bishop that I think would be a trustable person, I can't seem to find willingness to deal with or believe priesthood leaders because of that lack of trust. I'm not sure how to put it back. I liked the statement from Prison Chaplain. Maybe it's not about trust, but about patience on my part for the slow progress the church sometimes makes as a whole. (yes, I've heard all of Hinckley's talks and all the books, and all the scriptures about how wrong it is for spouses to treat each other that way) Despite all that information there still seems to be a serious lack of action on a local level. And a dismissive attitude about how serious it is to commit violent acts upon ones family. Because of this attitude, I know of many, many women and children who have remained, or put themselves through further harm and sorrow as well as the loss of trust in the church and it's leaders.

Are leaders there to be simply administrative? Should we/I go them for help, understanding, direction, blessings? Maybe it was unwise of me to have even involved my bishop in my marital problems, no matter how serious? Maybe church discipline is meaningless to provide any measure of justice to the innocent or even protect the reputation of the church. Many, many people, without my instigation, have wondered why my ex was not censured in some way. How many other women watched what happened and saw themselves as trapped in a temple marriage because even serious abuse was not enough for the church to take a stand and say "this is wrong", this man should not be holding a calling or hold the priesthood and staying married is more important than a woman and children's safety.

I wish I knew the answers. I realize that my statements don't apply to every single leader out there. Each person is different.

Again it is not my intention to be "happy" about discrediting church leaders. Nor do I think anyone should take my experience and use it as an excuse to denounce any leader or the church. I try to support them as best as I can in hopes that my trust will return someday. Church leaders have a hard job and it is getting harder all the time. I pray regularly that these men will be willing to listen to and be guided by the spirit in what they do and strong enough to follow through. I hope others do the same. And despite my "issues" , I know the gospel is true. With time and grace I hope we will all be able to righteously live the gospel and bless each others lives. That even goes for my ex.

[krowe]

<div class='quotemain'>
And your right Heavenly Father does protect.
[/b]

What do you guys mean by this? God/HF protects in the afterlife if someone is abused in this life? Because God doesn't always protect here. Tell that to the children involved in all the sick, senseless crimes I read about in the news each day.

Mind you, I'm a Christian, but God does not always protect. Apparently, if he would, everyone would not have their 'free agency'. This is something I've always struggled with. Hopefully one day I'll understand it.

But I would like for you to explain what you meant by this statement, please.
[/b][/quote]


Having experienced some of those sick senseless things and had some serious discussions with close friends who have asked the same thing because of their own experiences. You are right he does not always protect us from terrible things. But I believe the friends, the help, even the coping mechanisms, like repression and dissassociation we have built into are psyche are part of God's way of protecting us. I also believe each of us will be judged individually for our lives and those who have had a difficulty scale of 10+ will be held to a different standard than those who have had a difficulty scale of 2 in for thier life. I also know that God/Jesus Christ can heal even the worst of things enough for us to find some measure of happiness in this life. As far as protection, sometimes we are protected, I have felt that some situations would have been much worse without it. I doubt that it has anything to do with one person being more or less righteous than another. I trust that God knows much, much more than I do about how to maintain the balance between agency and protection. In the end those who truly deserve the pains of hell will not have any excuse for their choices and how those choices hurt others and those who have been so hurt will be repaid ten-fold and their pain washed away completely.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>
krowe,
Your testimony has been that some <people> are being severely threatened, and that because it is either too embarrassing, or too difficult, or too unbelievable, the problem wasn’t or isn’t being addressed.

Is that all you have to say for the record?

I’m curious to know what you meant by “severely threatened”, or what the problem really was, and how you could know whether or not action was or wasn’t taken to solve the problem as you saw it.

And btw, while you are not personally responsible for the comments made by other people concerning the worthiness of people in leadership positions in the Church, the few comments you did make fed the idea that our leaders should not be trusted, which I suppose makes you feel happy since you started this thread with your own doubts.
[/b]

First it does not make me feel happy, I did not start this so that other people would not trust their leaders. I grew up with a "possibly" idealized version of who a church leader is and that ideal came face to face with a cold reality.

By severely threatened I mean my life, my health and that of my children was being threatened by my husband. My bishop told me to work it out and that he thought hitting me sometimes was not cause enough for him to get involved or to hold a church court or even take his temple recommend away because my husband seemed sorry about it anyway. I got a restraining order which was broken many, many times, I got more restraining orders, he went to jail. The bishop called to see if I would get him out of jail because he thought it wasn't such a good place to be for my husband. I told him it was the safest I had felt in 7 years and I would not get him out. He was in jail for attempting to kill and kidnap me and my 2 year old daughter. Several church leaders urged me not to get a divorce, but to work with my husband. They didn't really seem to care if I would have all of my limbs still attached when I was trying to "work" with him.

I currently have a wonderful bishop who puts in lots of his time, effort and prayers to do the right thing. My heart goes out to the "priesthood leader" who wrote in to this forum. It sounds like he tries his best and his friend did the right thing even though it cost him dearly. I understand how doing the right thing can often be very costly.


The bishop I refer to in dealing with my ex is a good man who did the wrong thing, maybe from ignorance, maybe from fear, embarassment or even just a lack of time and energy to deal with such a serious problem. Maybe he has hit his wife and didn't want the same type of condemnation to come to him. (yes, I know of bishops who have or do abuse, even hit their wives).

My problem is that I have managed through a lot of struggle to stay in the church, keep my testimony and continue to work on my own faults. But even when I have a wonderful bishop that I think would be a trustable person, I can't seem to find willingness to deal with or believe priesthood leaders because of that lack of trust. I'm not sure how to put it back. I liked the statement from Prison Chaplain. Maybe it's not about trust, but about patience on my part for the slow progress the church sometimes makes as a whole. (yes, I've heard all of Hinckley's talks and all the books, and all the scriptures about how wrong it is for spouses to treat each other that way) Despite all that information there still seems to be a serious lack of action on a local level. And a dismissive attitude about how serious it is to commit violent acts upon ones family. Because of this attitude, I know of many, many women and children who have remained, or put themselves through further harm and sorrow as well as the loss of trust in the church and it's leaders.

Are leaders there to be simply administrative? Should we/I go them for help, understanding, direction, blessings? Maybe it was unwise of me to have even involved my bishop in my marital problems, no matter how serious? Maybe church discipline is meaningless to provide any measure of justice to the innocent or even protect the reputation of the church. Many, many people, without my instigation, have wondered why my ex was not censured in some way. How many other women watched what happened and saw themselves as trapped in a temple marriage because even serious abuse was not enough for the church to take a stand and say "this is wrong", this man should not be holding a calling or hold the priesthood and staying married is more important than a woman and children's safety.

I wish I knew the answers. I realize that my statements don't apply to every single leader out there. Each person is different.

Again it is not my intention to be "happy" about discrediting church leaders. Nor do I think anyone should take my experience and use it as an excuse to denounce any leader or the church. I try to support them as best as I can in hopes that my trust will return someday. Church leaders have a hard job and it is getting harder all the time. I pray regularly that these men will be willing to listen to and be guided by the spirit in what they do and strong enough to follow through. I hope others do the same. And despite my "issues" , I know the gospel is true. With time and grace I hope we will all be able to righteously live the gospel and bless each others lives. That even goes for my ex.
[/b][/quote]
Based on everything you have said, and if everything you have said is true, I am now extending my apologies and condolences and sympathy and love for everything you have had to go through. Sincerely and honestly and truly, as little as that may mean to you.

And now, for the next action, I recommend that you print everything contained in this thread and then make an appointment with your bishop, to see what he has to say about all of this. And if that doesn't help, seal it up in a letter and send it to your stake president, or area authority, or even to the Quorum of the Apostles, or the Prophet, to see what they do about this.

After all, if true, this situation does need to be corrected, and to do that you should contact the authorities, to at least give them the chance to correct it.

And btw, I personally assure you that President Hinckley will do something about this, if he knows about it, and that God will honor his actions.

[krowe]

[/quote]
Based on everything you have said, and if everything you have said is true, I am now extending my apologies and condolences and sympathy and love for everything you have had to go through. Sincerely and honestly and truly, as little as that may mean to you.

And now, for the next action, I recommend that you print everything contained in this thread and then make an appointment with your bishop, to see what he has to say about all of this. And if that doesn't help, seal it up in a letter and send it to your stake president, or area authority, or even to the Quorum of the Apostles, or the Prophet, to see what they do about this.

After all, if true, this situation does need to be corrected, and to do that you should contact the authorities, to at least give them the chance to correct it.

And btw, I personally assure you that President Hinckley will do something about this, if he knows about it, and that God will honor his actions.
[/quote]


That is very sweet of you. It's appreciated. And I did not exaggerate the story at all.

I did talk to my current bishop about it all. He extended his sympathy and regret that church leaders are only human. But felt I should not make waves. I have recently been given the opportunity to write to some higher authorities however, and I plan on taking full advantage. I don't wish to go back and have people brought to courts of any kind. I don't see much point in that and I am safe and happy currently, so I think it would just be revengeful. My biggest wish is that other women in similiar situations won't be so dismissed by their leaders or put in further jeopardy if they choose to listen to their leaders as we have so often been told we should do. And as I have mentioned being able to find a way to trust my church leaders again.

I agree, as vehemently as President Hinckley has spoken out about the subject I think He would probably do something.

[BenRaines]

krowe,

I do not know what part of the world you live in but in the parts that I have lived in it is not acceptable for a husband to beat or even hit their wife. I find it troubling that you know many bishops that have done this deed. I have known many bishops, most of them are good personal friends of mine and as far as I am aware they don't beat their wives.

While I do understand that you have been in an abusive relationship, and I have studied them due to my daughter marrying the son of a stake pres, returned miss, who was physically abusive and is now divorced from him. There is no church policy that makes abuse physical or verbal acceptable.

I agree with Palerider. I have served in the role of leadership and abuse is not acceptable.

As a father it is not acceptable either. A bishop or other church leader is not supposed to tell someone if they should divorce or not. That is an individual decision.

Ben

[krowe]

krowe,

I do not know what part of the world you live in but in the parts that I have lived in it is not acceptable for a husband to beat or even hit their wife. I find it troubling that you know many bishops that have done this deed. I have known many bishops, most of them are good personal friends of mine and as far as I am aware they don't beat their wives.

While I do understand that you have been in an abusive relationship, and I have studied them due to my daughter marrying the son of a stake pres, returned miss, who was physically abusive and is now divorced from him. There is no church policy that makes abuse physical or verbal acceptable.

I agree with Palerider. I have served in the role of leadership and abuse is not acceptable.

As a father it is not acceptable either. A bishop or other church leader is not supposed to tell someone if they should divorce or not. That is an individual decision.

Ben
[/b]

I don't know many bishops who have been abusive to their wives. I know of only a few who were actually bishops. I know of many active male church members who have abused their active church member wives and children.

I am well aware of the fact that the church has no official policy condoning abuse. In fact it has officially come out strongly against it. Even with that official position in print and in word, I have yet to hear of even one church court held for the men I know to have been abusive, despite physical and legal evidence, including my ex. In fact no action was taken whatsoever, in any of the cases I am acquainted with.

I do not expect anyone to tell me or anyone else that they "should" get a divorce least of all a bishop, stake president, etc. Nor did I ask any of them if they thought I should get a divorce. They also don't have to encourage you to stay married while bruises and bandages are very apparent and you are explaining how terrified you are of your own husband.

I was asking for support, help, even just a listening ear at the time would have been a huge benefit. Not recriminations. Or being told that despite the abuse my husband could keep his recommend to the temple in fact was encouraged that he attend more so maybe he would be less inclined to abuse his wife. Maybe that can be construed as encouragement to repent and change his ways. I felt it was very dismissive of the seriousness of abuse. After the bishop left the comment that my previously tearful husband made to me was "see, I told you I wouldn't get in trouble."

Question for you? Where did this Stake president's son learn to mistreat women?

[shanstress70]

Krowe,

I'm sorry you and your children have had to go through all of this. I hope this nightmare is all over for you.

Palerider, I know that you are a wonderful bishop(?). I have been acquainted with some wonderful people in leadership positions in the LDS church.

Just like in everything, there are those who give any religion a bad name. Unfortunately, the 'good ole boy' network is alive and kicking. They look out for each other. Too bad people like that are in positions that make decisions for people.

[Acez]

man i wish that all people were good....but thats impossible....
stink....

[krowe]

man i wish that all people were good....but thats impossible....
stink....
[/b]

How old are you?