Is grace enough?

Traveler · #1 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 09:47 PM

I just cought up on some of the posting. I find it interesting that even though some say that grace is enough they will then turn around and say it is not enough if you deny the Christ. If it is enough and if it is free then even discussions are pointless. The only reason to say or talk about the grace of G-d and make a point of it - is because somewhere somehow it is not enough.

It does not matter what a person says - it is what they do. That has always been the case and will always be the case.

Let me put this in another way - How can a G-d be called "full of grace" and love and compassion that would banish anyone from heaven that truly desired to be there. I have said it before and I will say it again. THE GRACE OF G-D IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THOSE THAT WOULD RATHER BE IN DARKNESS THAN IN LIGHT!!!

I personally would rather be in a hell full of those that desire to be in heaven and with G-d than in a heaven full of those that want to exclude anyone from heaven that desires to be with G-d.

Also - I do not care what you have done or where or how you worship or what church you belong to - If you want to live in heaven with G-d - I offer you all that I have and all that I am to stand by and assist you in getting there as best I can and know how. Even if it does not make a difference - I offer it anyway.

The Traveler

Dr T · #2 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:05 PM

Jesus' "grace is sufficient" for a believer. If you do not accept him then it is not the relationship he desires and God's plan and therefore you are on the outside. The path is narrow-it is not any church or any way you chose to worship from what I take from scripture but only one way. I do not claim to know better than God what is loving/fair/right but I'm only going by what He gave us in the Bible.

prisonchaplain · #3 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:12 PM

Traveler, if I read you right, you are offering to extend yourself for me...cause I want to be in heaven with God. So, that's a firm foundation for us.

Traveler · #4 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr T

Jesus' "grace is sufficient" for a believer. If you do not accept him then it is not the relationship he desires and God's plan and therefore you are on the outside. The path is narrow-it is not any church or any way you chose to worship from what I take from scripture but only one way. I do not claim to know better than God what is loving/fair/right but I'm only going by what He gave us in the Bible.

I see this as nothing more than a game of words. How can anyone say they accept Jesus and not his commandments - and how can they say they accept his commandments and break them?

Anyone that says they love Jesus and honor him but have not forgiven others - what ever their sin - are no more accepting of Jesus than the worse heritic and so call non-believer. You can play any word game you like but his greace is enough for anyone at anytime that desires to be with G-d in heaven. I stand by what I have said both in saying it and helping anyone regardless of who had turned them away or for what.

Nothing is impossible to G-d and it is never too late - there is a "way". But if you do not want to be with those of us that have errored (what ever the error - including denying G-d) but yet now desire his grace having experienced your sin - that is your choice and I will not fault you for making it public. But it does not chang my resolve. Thanks anyway

The Traveler

Dr T · #5 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 10:48 PM

Of course we have all sinned. Thanks be to God for the saving grace of his Son. I see that you only see it as a word game but I don't know how to get around the facts without using words. I don't understand what you are saying about believing him but not keeping his commandments. What exactly to you mean? Do you mean that once saved you can never sin again? Paul says he does what he does not want to do and does not do what he wants to do. So are we all even after we are saved. We read that not all that call "Lord Lord" will enter. Why do you think that is? Jesus can cover all sins once a saving relationship is established between Him and his creation. If none, then that's on us. God reached out to us. The gift is there.

Hemidakota · #6 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008, 07:54 AM

Many will be glorified in heaven but only a few will reside with the Godhead in greatest glory called the Celestial glory. Nothing but tears will be shed for the many.

HizWife625 · #7 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008, 07:57 AM

Anyone that says they love Jesus and honor him but have not forgiven others - what ever their sin - are no more accepting of Jesus than the worse heritic and so call non-believer.

What about the murderer who cannot be forgiven by your own doctrine? That is what is confusing for me when you say the above.

Have you ever lied? Have you ever broken the speed limit? Have you ever just mistakenly taken a pen from work? ETC..... Sin is sin in His eyes.

Those who believe that grace is sufficient ARE NOT SAYING, we can live like hethens..... But what we do believe, is that until the day the Lord returns, we will fall and that means we will fall into sin.....My little lie is no better than the murderer.....It is still sin..... My desire is to walk the path of bringing complete honor and glory to our Lord....To renew my mind daily in His words and desire to live according to His will doing what is right....But I am flesh and I have the inherited sin nature of Adam and Eve..... I cannot live on this earth and not sin.....I can attempt everytime I a faced with sin/temptation to overcome with the power and wisdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, but there will be times I fail........When I fall, I repent by the prompting of the Holy Spirit......I know I have done wrong and want to make it right before God....... But what He has promised is that by my faith in Him, his death on the cross and His faithfulness is that our relationship will always remain.....My salvation is never taken away. But when I do sin, the relationship is weakened......... Of course we try to keep the commandments, but we also believe in New Testiment law of that sins were forgiven at the cross.

What were Jesus' few last words on the Cross....." FATHER PLEASE FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO:................... If He has the grace, mercy and love to ask His father to forgive those who were murdering Him, and if we are to imitate Him, why can't the murderer be forgiven for his sins according to the LDS doctrine ? Why is His death not sufficient for all who believe in Him?

Grace is sufficient..... That is why Jesus died because there is nothing anyone else could ever do to cover all sins....He was the ultimate sacrifce for all who sin....

But I do agree, that those who profess their faith in Jesus Christ need and should walk the path of righteousness.......The bible says we are to renew our mind daily, correct ? Why would it say that if we never sinned again?

Hemidakota · #8 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008, 08:02 AM

Your eyes are not open at this time.

HizWife625 · #9 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008, 08:10 AM

Hemi

By your own statement, your temple or your followersrs cannot forgive the murderer...... But by Travelers own words, he/she finds it wrong not to forgive others, no matter what the sin........

The question really is .....

Did Jesus die for all who sin ? If anyone says no, they are limiting Jesus death as to be in vein. That is heart breaking.

BTW......My eyes..... Wide OPEN.....been that way for 29 years.

tomk · #10 (**permalink**) 05-06-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traveler

I just cought up on some of the posting. I find it interesting that even though some say that grace is enough they will then turn around and say it is not enough if you deny the Christ. If it is enough and if it is free then even discussions are pointless. The only reason to say or talk about the grace of G-d and make a point of it - is because somewhere somehow it is not enough.

It does not matter what a person says - it is what they do. That has always been the case and will always be the case.

Let me put this in another way - How can a G-d be called "full of grace" and love and compassion that would banish anyone from heaven that truly desired to be there. I have said it before and I will say it again. THE GRACE OF G-D IS NOT ENOUGH FOR THOSE THAT WOULD RATHER BE IN DARKNESS THAN IN LIGHT!!!

I personally would rather be in a hell full of those that desire to be in heaven and with G-d than in a heaven full of those that want to exclude anyone from heaven that desires to be with G-d.

Also - I do not care what you have done or where or how you worship or what church you belong to - If you want to live in heaven with G-d - I offer you all that I have and all that I am to stand by and assist you in getting there as best I can and know how. Even if it does not make a difference - I offer it anyway.

The Traveler

I just want to say, there is no dichotomy here. It isn't an either / or situation with grace and works. Both are necessary for the spiritual maturation of the individual. Grace powers the works. Works qualify us for more grace! But in the end, yes, it is a total and complete Gift!! We don't do anything, really, to "earn" or "deserve" our exaltation. Even so, we are required to contribute our paltry sum to the process. As I believe C.S. Lewis said, grace and works are like the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary to get the job done.

God wants us all to come home. It is our choice to avail ourselves of the program He has put in place. It is all being done for OUR benefit.