Works required for Christ's grace?

[tiancum]

how do you interpret this?

Does the lord require something of us before we are "saved"?


[quote][Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven./QUOTE]



I am sure we are all in agreement that we are saved by grace. At what point does grace kick in...?

-confessing his name is a work, just as much as any other commandment.

-can a person confess Christ's name, but give no effort to follow him after his "saving moment" and fall from grace?

[tomk]

Works and Grace have always been designed to function together from the beginning. It is man's interpretation that skews them into a "either / or" dichotomy which was actually never taught and never sanctioned by the Lord.

One of the VERY BEST explanations of works and grace is found in this book:


Amazon.com: Believing Christ the Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News: Stephen E. Robinson: Books


also by the same author:


Amazon.com: Following Christ: The Parable of the Divers and More Good News: Stephen E. Robinson: Books




CS Lewis describes "Faith and Works" as two blades of the same pair of scissors, working in complete harmony.



It is faith in Christ that motivates us to "do the things we've seen Him do" -- or in other words -- keep His commandments. As we do so, during our doing of the "works" -- THAT is when GRACE comes into play. For as we go about "doing good" unto others -- we lack the real POWER and KNOWLEDGE that we need to see it through. GRACE is the giving of God's power unto man -- such that we can actually DO the works He asks us to do and HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE required to do it just as He would do it. Grace allows us to be His proxy!!!!


Without grace -- our works may be "good" but they won't be GREAT.

Without works -- the catalyst that is GRACE cannot be "activated"

Our works don't EARN the manfestation of GRACE. A gift is still a gift. All we do is qualify.



That is the best I can do right now. The books do a much better job.




Hope this helps,



Tom

[Misshalfway]

Love it, Tom. For me, the more I learn about Grace, the harder it is for me to identify where grace doesn't apply. I find the grace of God to be more than just the act of raising me from my sins. I find it to be woven throughout the entire gospel and inside of every step I take in applying the gospel in my life.

[Hemidakota]

The Relationship between Grace and Works

The topic of grace and works has the possibility of eternal consequences. It is timely and worthy of our attention and interest. It is fundamental to many other teachings of the gospel and thus is worthy of our study, research, and pondering.

In searching for materials on this subject, I checked under the entry "grace" in the index to Church periodicals for 1961-83. I was dumbfounded to find just five articles listed. Three were from the Church News. The fourth article, a general conference talk by Elder Mark E. Petersen titled "We Believe in Being Honest," 1 was not related directly to the topic of grace and works. The fifth article, the only one in Church periodicals in twenty-three years to specifically address the topic, was very good. Written by Gerald N. Lund, it was titled "Salvation: By Grace or by Works?" 2 I commend it highly.

In doing further research, I discovered the text of a masterful discourse, "What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace?" by Elder Bruce R. McConkie, given at a Brigham Young University devotional on January 10, 1984. 3 I urge you to read and ponder the entire talk.

In his talk, Elder McConkie referred to the teaching of salvation by grace and faith alone as the second great heresy of "a now fallen and decadent Christianity." He identified the first and chief heresy as the false doctrine introduced by Catholic Christianity that God is "no longer a personal Father, no longer a personage of tabernacle, [but] an incomprehensible three-in-one spirit essence that filled the immensity of space." 4

He described the second heresy as "the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. It is the doctrine that we are saved by grace alone, without works. It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins." 5 Elder McConkie referred to this false teaching as "one of the great religious phenomena of the ages, one that is now sweeping through Protestant Christianity." 6

Those of us who have been in the front lines of missionary service in recent years know how extensively the Protestants are using this heresy against the true Church. Some of the first challenges against the Church in this dispensation concerned the reality of the First Vision and whether the Book of Mormon could actually be the word of God. Later the attack was against the practice of polygamy and, still later, the denial of priesthood privileges to blacks. More recently the attacks have centered on the place of women in the Church—specifically, the position of the Church on the Equal Rights Amendment and the question of giving the priesthood to women.

Certainly one of the major charges apostate Christianity and some of the groups of ex-Mormons bring against the true Church today is that neither the Church nor its members are Christian. The supposed evidence brought against us is that we must not believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ because we do not believe man is saved by grace alone; rather, we say that works are also necessary.

Hundreds of statements against the doctrinal position of the Church on this subject could be produced, but maybe a summary of one letter will suffice. Understand that its author is bitterly opposed to the message of the Restoration. Statements such as "Mormonism is not of God" and "The only instances in which the Book of Mormon is right are those where it borrows phrases from the Bible, God's word" indicate how the author feels.

The parts of this letter that caught my eye, however, are those that imply that we are unchristian. For example, "The Book of Mormon and all of Mormonism denies the gospel message that 'it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.'" This, of course, is from Ephesians 2:8-9 in the Jerusalem Bible. The author continues: "Good works are not prerequisite to salvation but rather are the result of our being saved: 'For we are his [God's] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.'" This appears to be a paraphrase of Ephesians 2:10. Finally, the author cites Romans 11:6 in the Revised Standard Version by stating: "Paul makes it clear that salvation cannot be on the basis of both grace and works. It is an either/or situation: 'But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.'"

This letter pinpoints the problem inherent in our topic as viewed by our Protestant friends. In using the word problem, I am well aware of statements by present leaders that we don't have problems in the Church; rather, we have challenges and opportunities. Therefore, the word problem is not used to reflect our understanding of the topic. I really believe that any member of the Church who has read the scriptures, especially the new editions with their accompanying chapter headings and footnotes, and who has attended meetings and classes and listened attentively should not have any serious problem with the subject of grace and works. Those outside the Church, however, think we have a problem with this subject, and it is from their viewpoint that I use the word problem. Actually, it is their problem, not ours.

References:
1. See Mark E. Petersen, in Conference Report, April 1982, 18-22; see also Mark E. Petersen, "'We Believe in Being Honest,'" Ensign, May 1982, 14-16.

2. See Gerald N. Lund, "Salvation: By Grace or by Works?" Ensign, April 1981, 17-23.

3. Bruce R. McConkie, "What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace?" in Brigham Young University 1983-84 Fireside and Devotional Speeches (Provo, Utah: University Publications, 1984), 44-50.

4. Ibid., 44.

5. Ibid., 45.

6. Ibid., 44.

[Misshalfway]

We inherit salvation. We don't earn it.

[Hemidakota]

"Its exponents liken man's quest for eternal glory to climbing a flight of endless stairs. By mastering one more eternal principle, or conquering one more weakness of the flesh, the heaven-bent pilgrim mounts a new stair.

This analogy has merit, and suggests the vast and seemingly limitless possibilities for growth open to every mortal, as he pursues his quest for eternal glory. The analogy, however, as it stands, is deficient. It does not give sufficient recognition to the doctrine of grace. The analogy suggests that once man has found the endless staircase (which staircase presumably represents the Plan of Salvation), he becomes, thereafter, the means of his own salvation. Salvation becomes a matter of exerting the effort required to climb the stairs. In such a concept, our Heavenly Father's role becomes essentially that of an omniscient instructor, who is eternally urging His children to exert the effort to ascend to greater heights. This concept, however, fails to give full force and effect to the atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

If we must cling to the stairway analogy, we should modify it to include a huge and unbridgeable chasm somewhere along the stairs' upward course. When man reaches that chasm, he cannot cross it without aid. All the wisdom, righteousness, and brilliance of performance which mortal man may marshal in his own cause cannot transport him across the empty void ahead. Finite powers stand in helplessness before this impasse in infinity.

The Third Article of Faith reads: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." In our analogy, obedience becomes the effort by which we ascend the endless stairs; it is the Atonement of Christ which carries us across the otherwise unbridgeable chasm. No mortal man has ever earned this Atonement for anything which he has done. It is not a stipend. It is not a reward. It is a gift of love beyond price. It is the grace of God.

To the above qualification to the stairway analogy we add another. Man may, from time to time, find himself without the strength to keep climbing; he also may become confused and find himself in danger of falling. But he has been told that he may ask for help. When that help comes, it is a gift or an outpouring of grace."

[bert10]

Hi Tiancum....I do not know if one would consider the following two verses below from Moroni as Grace for works.

Perhaps if one thinks of it this way...it would it would help remove the confusion.

<>. Grace of God for sinners....is time given them to repent of their sins before wraths comes because of justice.

<>.Grace of God for the righteous....is the ability of GOD the Father to see us again as Little Children.


Moroni 10:32 - Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Moroni 10:33 - And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Peace be unto you
bert10


[quote=tiancum;201143]how do you interpret this?

Does the lord require something of us before we are "saved"?

[Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven./QUOTE]



I am sure we are all in agreement that we are saved by grace. At what point does grace kick in...?

-confessing his name is a work, just as much as any other commandment.

-can a person confess Christ's name, but give no effort to follow him after his "saving moment" and fall from grace?

[tomk]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

Love it, Tom. For me, the more I learn about Grace, the harder it is for me to identify where grace doesn't apply. I find the grace of God to be more than just the act of raising me from my sins. I find it to be woven throughout the entire gospel and inside of every step I take in applying the gospel in my life.

Agreed.

The "real magic" happens when you STOP worrying about the "letter of the law" so much -- and just LET IT BE WHAT IT IS.

God is good, God is kind, God is merciful. He is anxious and willing to bless us. We're family.


He probably wishes we'd stop worrying so much about DEFINITIONS and just enjoy the Father / Child relationship!

[tomk]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

"Its exponents liken man's quest for eternal glory to climbing a flight of endless stairs. By mastering one more eternal principle, or conquering one more weakness of the flesh, the heaven-bent pilgrim mounts a new stair.

This analogy has merit, and suggests the vast and seemingly limitless possibilities for growth open to every mortal, as he pursues his quest for eternal glory. The analogy, however, as it stands, is deficient. It does not give sufficient recognition to the doctrine of grace. The analogy suggests that once man has found the endless staircase (which staircase presumably represents the Plan of Salvation), he becomes, thereafter, the means of his own salvation. Salvation becomes a matter of exerting the effort required to climb the stairs. In such a concept, our Heavenly Father's role becomes essentially that of an omniscient instructor, who is eternally urging His children to exert the effort to ascend to greater heights. This concept, however, fails to give full force and effect to the atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

WE IMMERSE OURSELVES IN IT - WE DON'T PICK IT APART. OKAY, NOW I AM DOING WORKS. OKAY, THAT WAS GRACE. NO WAIT A MINUTE, I WAS WRONG, THAT WAS WORKS. OOPS, I CONFUSED WORKS FOR GRACE AGAIN!!!!

SUCH A NOTION IS LAUGHABLE.

If we must cling to the stairway analogy, we should modify it to include a huge and unbridgeable chasm somewhere along the stairs' upward course. When man reaches that chasm, he cannot cross it without aid. All the wisdom, righteousness, and brilliance of performance which mortal man may marshal in his own cause cannot transport him across the empty void ahead. Finite powers stand in helplessness before this impasse in infinity.

AND WHEN WE CROSS THAT CHASM THROUGH GOD'S GRACE -- HAVE WE NOW SOMEHOW EARNED OUR REWARD?

OF COURSE NOT!!!!!



AND HAD WE NOT WALKED UP TO THE EDGE (our "token" effort) COULD WE HAVE RECEIVED GRACE? NO, WE HAD TO DO SOMETHING. BUT THAT "SOMETHING" WE DID NEVER "EARNED" ANYTHING. GRACE IS STILL A GIFT!!!


The Third Article of Faith reads: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." In our analogy, obedience becomes the effort by which we ascend the endless stairs; it is the Atonement of Christ which carries us across the otherwise unbridgeable chasm. No mortal man has ever earned this Atonement for anything which he has done. It is not a stipend. It is not a reward. It is a gift of love beyond price. It is the grace of God.

To the above qualification to the stairway analogy we add another. Man may, from time to time, find himself without the strength to keep climbing; he also may become confused and find himself in danger of falling. But he has been told that he may ask for help. When that help comes, it is a gift or an outpouring of grace."

LOVED IT.



THANKS HEMI.

[tiancum]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

We inherit salvation. We don't earn it.

Miss half way, that is a bit simplistic, please expand...



Plus, i don't think anyone was saying we earned anything. It is very different than the Father requiring something of us, which he does.