Alcohol

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by sjdean

People are the cause of abuse, not alcohol. I know many "thin" people who drink and are not fat. I know fat people who don't drink!

Again, you are the one who is saying I said fat/obese. I never said that nor did I ever imply that.

Yes people are the cause of abuse. They abuse themselves in a vast array of ways.

The Lord has told us in D&C 89: 3 Given for a principle with apromise, adapted to the capacity of the bweak and the weakest of all csaints, who are or can be called saints. boldness mine.

This revelation was given to us in a way that even the weakest of all could do this, to obey.

Now read -
7 And, again, astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

When I had re-activated back into the Church, I was at a Cafe, eating lunch and reading The Book of Mormon. My neighbor came in, saw me reading, asked if I was a Mormon. I told him that yes I was. He asked me why I chose to not drink coffee, tea? (He knew why I had quit drinking alcoholic beverages) Surely coffee and tea were harmless? I told him that I did so because Heavenly Father had told us through revelation to not drink them. He said: so it really is an obedience thing, right? I said yes, partially it is obedience. I trust Father to lead me the right way. I then told him that if through revelation Father told our living Prophet today that we were to quit drinking cows milk, that mothers were to stop feeding their babies cows milk also. I would cease drinking milk too. I dearly love milk. But I have faith in God, and I trust God to know what is right and safe for me. It is also a health thing. It is not healthy to drink coffee and tea, or alcoholic beverages.

He asked me why I thought Father would ban cows milk. I answered - Mad Cow disease. Genetically altered cows. Cows fed too many hormones. That would be my guess. It hasn't happened, but it is a probable might happen.

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Where do I say FAT? Where do I say obese? I did not, you misinterpreted that.

Oh come now. Big abdomen. How do you judge a big abdomen, or big gut? By it's very nature, it implies some kind of weight issue. The nature of fat means that you can have fat in certain areas. Thighs, Bums, Faces, Bellies.

Originally Posted by Iggy

I should have been more clear by saying that they have normal weight/size arms, lower torso, legs. That just their gut area below their chest and above their waist is extended,large, out of proportion to the rest of their body. Of the obese people that I know and have seen - NONE have guts (the area just below the chest and above the waist) that are rock hard!

I have one of these "guts", but I don't have liver issues as you described. It's fat from, well, food.

Instead of saying people with a gut have alcohol issues, it would be much clearer to say that those with an alcoholic disorder generally have or are about to develop a liver disorder. However it is not certain or clear why some people who abuse alcohol do not have the gut with which you speak and we'd be wise not to jump to conclusions and judge a person based on stereotypes.

Originally Posted by Iggy

I am anti-alcohol, it is a result of being the niece of two raving alcoholics, and married to an alcoholic for 25 years.

You and I differ very significantly on this. I can't comment on what you experienced, it wouldn't be right. All my heart tells me is that we shouldn't be anti anything because someone around us abused it. It's a different thing being an anti because it's against the law or your HF tells you something.

Originally Posted by Iggy

It is also the result of my drinking myself senseless for 15 of those years too. I really don't think I was an alcoholic because I never craved it. I drank so that I would be drunk and not know what my husband was saying or doing. I drank because he put it in front of me and told me to drink. That if I didn't drink with him, then I wasn't loyal to him, that I didn't love him.

I've never been in that same situation. I do remember once wanting to drink to end it all when I was very depressed. However I wasn't very serious and half a bottle of Southern Comfort later feeling sorry for myself, I threw up and can't touch Southern Comfort ever again.

I don't crave alcohol. Im not exactly sure if I enjoy it or not. I can definitely hand on my heart say Im not addicted to it.

Originally Posted by Iggy

You are making more out of what I said than what I said. His family were the ones who were denying that he was an alcoholic.

Sorry, my apologies. I must have got the attributions wrong.

You did say "A co-worker of mine lost her father to cirrhosis of the liver. He wasn't an alcoholic, he only drank three 12oz beers a day"

From that, it sounded like you were saying he drank every day, wasn't an alcoholic, but had cirrhosis.

Im confused why you would even want to share that story. Are you suggesting alcohol cannot be drunk responsibly? That no matter how responsible we think we are, we're actually all alcoholic in denial?

I have a hard time trying to figure out your position. You seem to suggest that everyone with a gut has cirrhosis, then ignore the fact that cirrhosis has other causes despite alcohol. You seem to suggest even the mildest of drinkers have medical issues. You almost hint on it being impossible to drink and not be abusive. It is this equation of alcohol and abusiveness on whatever level I really have a problem with.

You then seem to cry out about anybody who don't have the same beliefs as you, who aren't alcoholics, who don't have medical issues, large guts or cirrhosis, who don't cause trouble and enjoy a responsible drink.

Your answer seems to be the anecdote about your co-workers "responsible drinking" friend who was actually an alcoholic. I don't quite understand the point of throwing that in there was all about. Do you think Im trying to defend alcoholism, or are you saying all drinkers are alcoholic?

Originally Posted by Iggy

This I agree with totally! Alcohol causes great damage. Smoking causes great damage. Taking drugs that have not been prescribed to you by a licensed Doctor causes great damage.They ALL are BAD. Yes, you've got that one right.

I didn't say that. You said that.

I said responsible drinking doesn't cause a problem. Because if you drink responsibly by definition, you don't cause a problem. And I've backed up my position by a quick five minute Google and presented information from medical people.

Originally Posted by Iggy

Talk about knee-jerk reaction- what I have said has really hit a very raw nerve with you.

Quite right it hit a nerve with me. Not because Im an alcoholic, or Im abusive or have cirrhosis. I have none of these. Im non LDS (at the moment), therefore at the moment Im free to enjoy alcohol.

What I don't like, is the insinuation that I abuse alcohol because it is impossible not to drink without being abusive. This is incorrect. I dislike being told that responsible drinking causes medical issues when I have refuted this with recent medical research. I dislike being told that people with a gut (ie people like me) are closet alcoholics with cirrhosis of the liver when I don't have either condition.

I know many people without a gut who drink, and many people with a gut who don't drink.

My experiences totally goes against your extremely biased opinion.

I say that not to make fun of you or humiliate you, but to try to show you a different world, a different perspective.

Im well aware of how people can abuse alcohol. I just don't want to judge a book by it's cover. It's wrong to stereotype people, and I'd rather stamp out the abuse of alcohol and other abusive behaviours. I don't ever want to be in a position where Im calling someone an alcoholic with cirrhosis because they have a gut. Or ignoring someone who has a problem just because he doesn't have a gut. If someone has a problem with alcohol, then we should help them. If they don't, then providing they are following their laws and their beliefs, they are undeserving of criticism.

And your generalising is highly offensive to people like me.

I have a gut. Im not an alcoholic. I don't have cirrhosis. Im not abusive. I do like a drink from time to time. Im not addicted. I don't have medical issues through alcohol. When I drink, I drink responsibly. I don't drink and drive. I don't pick fights. I don't change my personality when Im drunk.

My final question for thought, although HF has told the LDS that strong drink is not for the belly, has he said why it is not for the belly? Has he explicitly said because it damages us, or because we pick fights?

Cheers
Simon

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Again, you are the one who is saying I said fat/obese. I never said that nor did I ever imply that.

Sorry, I did write that before you corrected me

Perhaps you could try "I know many people without guts who drink and many people with guts who don't drink."

Originally Posted by Iggy

Yes people are the cause of abuse. They abuse themselves in a vast array of ways.

The Lord has told us in D&C 89: 3 Given for a principle with apromise, adapted to the capacity of the bweak and the weakest of all csaints, who are or can be called saints. boldness mine.

This revelation was given to us in a way that even the weakest of all could do this, to obey.

Now read -
7 And, again, astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

Umm, does either of those paragraphs state that the use of such things or the drinking of alcohol is abusive to ones body? It just says it shouldn't be done. It doesn't actually say why.

Originally Posted by Iggy

When I had re-activated back into the Church, I was at a Cafe, eating lunch and reading The Book of Mormon. My neighbor came in, saw me reading, asked if I was a Mormon. I told him that yes I was. He asked me why I chose to not drink coffee, tea? (He knew why I had quit drinking alcoholic beverages) Surely coffee and tea were harmless? I told him that I did so because Heavenly Father had told us through revelation to not drink them. He said: so it really is an obedience thing, right? I said yes, partially it is obedience. I trust Father to lead me the right way. I then told him that if through revelation Father told our living Prophet today that we were to quit drinking cows milk, that mothers were to stop feeding their babies cows milk also. I would cease drinking milk too. I dearly love milk. But I have faith in God, and I trust God to know what is right and safe for me. It is also a health thing. It is not healthy to drink coffee and tea, or alcoholic beverages.

He asked me why I thought Father would ban cows milk. I answered - Mad Cow disease. Genetically altered cows. Cows fed too many hormones. That would be my guess. It hasn't happened, but it is a probable might happen.

But does God only say you should stop doing things that are unhealthy? Are all of Gods commandments in the promotion of health?

If God banned milk, perhaps he might do so as a means to test faith. Or because perhaps milk with something else is harmful. Perhaps he doesn't like our farming practices. Or maybe because milk in itself isn't harmful, but the abuse of milk in drinking large quantities leads to obesity and heart diseases and we're not mature enough to restrict our limit of milk by ourselves and become insistent that milk is abusive to our bodies.

[WANDERER]

From one Evangelical church's perspective (I can't speak for all): drinking to get drunk was frowned upon by the majority, drinking at all was frowned upon by others ...but all things in moderation was commonly quoted. It was discussed and scriptural references were studied. Alcohol was considered a personal decision, but not a huge issue except when problematic. Treating your body as a temple was emphasised.

The effects of alcoholism are certainly sad and so are the effects of binge drinking. I don't have a problem with those that believe in abstinence for whatever reasons: religious or otherwise. I don't think I can make that decision for other people.. to each person as their own conscience dictates.

It was a common practice for the older youthgroup (17 and above) to go to the beaches on New Years Eve and help out ...or to try to ensure that inebriated people did not decide to go swimming and drown (I didn't participate, although I did ask my parent's permission to do so). And the older members of the church and youth ministry participated in reachout to those that were alcoholics and to street people.

The youth were inclined to either not drink at all or to experiment a little. The latter was disastrous as we were an innocent lot. I remember my sister and I putting the daughter of a pastor into a cab...we found her lying on the footpath in daytime in the city...goodness knows what would have happened to her if we hadn't come along and we were extremely shocked. It was her first year of uni...17. Poor Bindy, she wanted so much to fit in and her 'friends' had not taken very good care of her at all. My sister went up to the tavern where they were and scolded them *really*. She was pretty fearless.

Being brought up in isolation within church schools and social groups didn't exactly adequately prepare us for our lives outside of the church and with outside temptations and like all teens we thought we knew best, even if we knew better.

Hope that helps.

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by WANDERER

From one Evangelical church's perspective (I can't speak for all): drinking to get drunk was frowned upon by the majority, drinking at all was frowned upon by others ...but all things in moderation was commonly quoted. It was discussed and scriptural references were studied. Alcohol was considered a personal decision, but not a huge issue except when problematic. Treating your body as a temple was emphasised.

The effects of alcoholism are certainly sad and so are the effects of binge drinking. I don't have a problem with those that believe in abstinence for whatever reasons: religious or otherwise. I don't think I can make that decision for other people.. to each person as their own conscience dictates.

It was a common practice for the older youthgroup (17 and above) to go to the beaches on New Years Eve and help out ...or to try to ensure that inebriated people did not decide to go swimming and drown (I didn't participate, although I did ask my parent's permission to do so). And the older members of the church and youth ministry participated in reachout to those that were alcoholics and to street people.

The youth were inclined to either not drink at all or to experiment a little. The latter was disastrous as we were an innocent lot. I remember my sister and I putting the daughter of a pastor into a cab...we found her lying on the footpath in daytime in the city...goodness knows what would have happened to her if we hadn't come along and we were extremely shocked. It was her first year of uni...17. Poor Bindy, she wanted so much to fit in and her 'friends' had not taken very good care of her at all. My sister went up to the tavern where they were and scolded them *really*. She was pretty fearless.

Being brought up in isolation within church schools and social groups didn't exactly adequately prepare us for our lives outside of the church and with outside temptations and like all teens we thought we knew best, even if we knew better.

Hope that helps.

Wanderer, I like reading your posts.

The Word of Wisdom was given as a "principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.". Prior to the WoW, many Saints, including leaders, consumed alcohol, coffee, and tea, and used tobacco; at least in moderation if not all out.

The Bible itself, is not perfectly clear about the prohibition of alcohol; you can really go both ways if you want. Even the WoW in modern scripture, if we base it solely on the content of the scripture, is not as specific as we now have it. It starts out saying, "To be sent [by] greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—".

I don't really fault other religions for allowing for the consumption of alcohol. They don't have the clear directive that we have because of a living prophet.

Our current understanding of the Word of Wisdom is a result of having a modern, living prophet among us. For example, the Church has clarified that by "hot drinks" the WoW means coffee and tea, and that all alcohol and tobacco is to be avoided for consumption, and so forth. The WoW was adapted for the weakest among us. This means that there are probably many more substances that we should avoid to make ourselves more receptive to the Spirit, and the blessings the Lord has in store for us. It would not surprise me if the WoW was adapted even more in the future to step it up a notch, when the Lord feels we are ready for it; to further purify us from the world.

The whole issue of the WoW and the consumption of alcohol by other religions underscores the need for a living prophet to be on the earth. God has always operated that way. He calls prophets to lead and guide his people through the perils of their day. The Old Testament prophets are excellent examples of that.

These periods of time, when the Lord has called a prophet, are called dispensations. Ours is the dispensation of the fulness of times, and is the last dispensation before the second coming of the Son of God. For the Saints, this is a time of restoration, and purification, as the world is prepared for his coming (Eph. 1:10). We are so fortunate to have a prophet on the earth again. We can avoid the perils of our day if we heed the prophets:

"...In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—" (Doctrine and Covenants 89)

We will, and our other Christian brothers and sisters will also be blessed if they live the Word of Wisdom:

And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Sincerely,
Vanhin

[Snow]

Originally Posted by lostnfound

snow...explain to me what is in the word of wisdom on this subject that is different then what the bible teaches us? I get the impression that they say the same thing. Am I wrong?

Outside Mosaic law, which Christianity rejects, the Bible does not speak to the issues addressed in the Word of Wisdom, namely a health code for consuming foods and substances. In the WoW, those specifics are:

-No booze
-No tobacco
-No hot drinks (which we now officially understand as coffee and tea)
-Healthy eating - grains etc, moderation.
-Little meat

Moreover, the WoW then goes on to make promises to those that obey the WoW. None of that is found in the Bible to my knowledge.

We LDS often view selected parts of the WoW as moral issues - ie one who smokes or drinks is immoral, sinful, to be disdained. What bothers me is the inconsistency... ignoring other parts of the WoW and certainly the spirit of the law.

The spirit of the law is that the body is the temple of the spirit and we are to keep the temple pure. Poor eating, excessive meats and sugars and carbs... more calories consumed that we burn off, is just as bad, if not worse, than consuming the things that we treat as moral issues - booze, cigarettes and coffee.

[crytsprospect]

Thank you snow you said it so very well................

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by Snow

We LDS often view selected parts of the WoW as moral issues - ie one who smokes or drinks is immoral, sinful, to be disdained. What bothers me is the inconsistency... ignoring other parts of the WoW and certainly the spirit of the law.

The spirit of the law is that the body is the temple of the spirit and we are to keep the temple pure. Poor eating, excessive meats and sugars and carbs... more calories consumed that we burn off, is just as bad, if not worse, than consuming the things that we treat as moral issues - booze, cigarettes and coffee.

Excellent point - when asked about the WoW how many LDS will answer "no tea, coffee, tobacco and alcohol." and actually believe that's all there is to it. What about the early to bed and early to rise bit too?

[jms.mills]

In many respects, I believe the WoW is designed to set the church apart from the rest of the world. We are to be a peculiar people.

To start my comments, I am a Latter-Day Saint, I am do not see alcohol as inherently poisonous. My wife (we were sealed in the temple six months ago) strongly disagrees with this stance. I maintain, as other posters have mentioned, that alcohol is no more of a poison than other substance (sugar, milk, or food in general).

I say this because if drinking was inherently against the will of God, there would have been prohibitions on its use throughout the scriptures. In this dispensation, the saints, have been given revelation that tells them that alcohol is not to be consumed. As I mentioned in a previous thread, the reason for this prohibition is not alcohol's chemical properties, it is the nature of the marketing campaigns in modern times.

Section 89:4 of the Doctrine and Covenants is the key verse to the entire section. This verse tells us of "evil" and "conspiring" men. One "conspiracy" could be, in my opinion, the deceptive advertising used by alcohol companies. The companies use mass media promote the idea that to have a "good time" you must consume alcohol, specifically their product. Contrast this to ancient times where alcohol production was on a rather limited basis, often through family farms/vineyards. Yes, I am sure there were taverns and the local "bar" that promoted excess drinking, but their influence is not nearly as same as the mass media used by today's alcohol manufacturers.

Alcohol is not an inherent poison. In these latter day it is a symbol of the world. Generally speaking, when a party is mentioned in these days, alcohol is almost always listed in the party plans, with provisions regarding who is going to be the DD (designated driver). In my experience this is more the rule than the exception. It is this general excess use of alcohol, sponsored/promoted by major alcohol companies, that is reason for the ban of alcohol use in the WoW. As people who are called to be set apart from the world, we cannot be seen as partakers in something that is so "worldly," especially if there is the possibility of loosing our agency in the process.

I do not judge those who choose to drink. I simply pray that they do not loose themselves in their consumption of alcohol, as I have seen many of my friends do.

James

Ok. I am going to throw a huge monkey wrench into this discussion.
As a former Baptist Preacher I always used Noah as an example for the drinking of alcohol.
Also as an alcholic since I was 17 till I had a very...shall we say...A very Harsh wake up call. I have seen the first hand affects of the abuse of alcohol.
Now, there are certain products that I have to be very careful about using that are not listed in the WoW. Take cough suryp for example. If you carefully read the ingrediants the one that is in the front with the largest quanity is...you guessed it. Alcohol. So what are you to do when you get sick?
To me anything that is a deterent to your witness should just simply not used. To me that is why the WoW was given to the profit. But that is a nother discussion.