Alcohol

[Snow]

Originally Posted by jms.mills

In many respects, I believe the WoW is designed to set the church apart from the rest of the world. We are to be a peculiar people.

To start my comments, I am a Latter-Day Saint, I am do not see alcohol as inherently poisonous. My wife (we were sealed in the temple six months ago) strongly disagrees with this stance. I maintain, as other posters have mentioned, that alcohol is no more of a poison than other substance (sugar, milk, or food in general).

There are some factual problems with your claims.

Alcohol is in fact poisonous. While just about anything can be poisonous if large enough quantities, alcohol is toxic, very toxic. People don't sterilize medical instruments in "sugar" or "milk," but they do sterilize things in alcohol because alcohol kills living organisms.

Alcohol easily alters and kills off critical parts of the brain. It can cause acute respiratory failure and death.

Unlike the milk and food that you compared alcohol to and which impart nutrients to the body, alcohol robs the body of critical nutrients like thiamine and lipoic acid. Alcohol is metabolized into acetaldehyde which is 30 times more toxic than alcohol itself. Methyl alcohol is metabolized into acetaldehyde cousin, formaldehyde - embalming fluid.

I say this because if drinking was inherently against the will of God, there would have been prohibitions on its use throughout the scriptures. In this dispensation, the saints, have been given revelation that tells them that alcohol is not to be consumed. As I mentioned in a previous thread, the reason for this prohibition is not alcohol's chemical properties, it is the nature of the marketing campaigns in modern times.

It is in the scriptures - the Word of Wisdom is found in the D&C. You say it isn't because of it's chemical properties but does God say that? No, of course he doesn't.

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by Snow

There are some factual problems with your claims.

Alcohol is in fact poisonous. While just about anything can be poisonous if large enough quantities, alcohol is toxic, very toxic. People don't sterilize medical instruments in "sugar" or "milk," but they do sterilize things in alcohol because alcohol kills living organisms.

There is quite a difference between neat alcohol and 4% beer. As for its toxicity, if it was in any way toxic, we'd all be dead by now.

As regards to the idea we shouldn't drink alcohol because it's used as a steriliser, I would suggest that we use vinegar, but it makes an excellent window cleaner.

Anyhow, a website I found in a couple of minutes:

Much of the damage done to the body is caused not by alcohol itself but by acetaldehyde, a highly reactive byproduct of alcohol metabolism. When alcohol is broken down quickly, as it is in women, more of this toxic chemical is produced in less time, causing more damage.

Additionally

Methanol is intoxicating but not directly poisonous. It is toxic by its breakdown (toxication) by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase in the liver by forming formic acid and formaldehyde which cause permanent blindness by destruction of the optic nerve.

I can't be 100% sure, Im not exactly sure on the chemistry. I read lots of information on issues with Methanol breakdown, but drinking alcohol has ethanol.

Originally Posted by Snow

Alcohol easily alters and kills off critical parts of the brain. It can cause acute respiratory failure and death.

Supposedly. Although there is information now that says it doesn't kill off brain cells.

Originally Posted by Snow

Unlike the milk and food that you compared alcohol to and which impart nutrients to the body, alcohol robs the body of critical nutrients like thiamine and lipoic acid. Alcohol is metabolized into acetaldehyde which is 30 times more toxic than alcohol itself. Methyl alcohol is metabolized into acetaldehyde cousin, formaldehyde - embalming fluid.

Methyl Alcohol? That's Methanol. Drinking Alcohol is Ethanol, not Methanol.

This reminds me of those crazy dieters who talk about "detoxification". I read constantly about how the body is designed to detoxify itself. We have no need to go on "detoxifying" diets. If our body couldn't detoxify itself, we'd all be dead.

It is in the scriptures - the Word of Wisdom is found in the D&C. You say it isn't because of it's chemical properties but does God say that? No, of course he doesn't.

I believe he said throughout the scriptures (ie clear distinction and restriction in the Bible etc). I think he's just making a point that it's a recent thing.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by sjdean

There is quite a difference between neat alcohol and 4% beer. As for its toxicity, if it was in any way toxic, we'd all be dead by now.

Your point being that:

1. Any toxic substance kills one who consumes it.
2. We all drink alcohol.

Therefore: Alcohol can't be toxic because we aren't all dead.

Both your points are absurdly and demonstrably false so your conclusion is likewise absurd. Do I need to explain how and why?

[prisonchaplain]

A couple of points: Most Christian churches did not prohibit the consumption of alcohol, historically. It was not until the 19th century, that women began to lobby for opposition to alcohol, based on the serious abuses of it.

Also, up until the late 19th century, it was unheard of to use anything but wine in the communion chalice. The Salvation Army, which started out ministering to skid row alcoholics, simply omitted communion from its sacraments, because the temptations were too great for their people, and there was no alternative.

Grape juice is now used in most evangelical, Baptist, and other conservative churches. However mainstream churches, the Orthodox, and the Roman Catholics all use wine. Jehovah's Witnesses also use wine for their annual Memorial Meal.

IMHO, the Bible does not prohibit the moderate use of alcohol. However, the abuse of this drug is so rampant in our society, that my church has joined most other evangelicals in opposing any consumption of it. Wise counsel, in the face of a such a dangerous substance.

[jms.mills]

Originally Posted by Snow

It is in the scriptures - the Word of Wisdom is found in the D&C. You say it isn't because of it's chemical properties but does God say that? No, of course he doesn't.

I do not contest the fact that the WoW is scripture. I accept Section 89 as 100% scripture. What I have issue is how many people in the church try to "explain" why alcohol is prohibited. My wife and I have had huge (heated) discussions regarding this subject... it is one of the subjects we stay away from just to prevent tension in our home.

Verse four of the Section 89 tells us the "reason" we are to abstain from alcohol (as well as the other substances mentioned). Evil and conspiring men are the reason for the this revelation. In my opinion any other "logical" explanation of why this revelation was given, while noble in intent, is unimportant. What is important is that God spoke and we listened.

Snow, what do you think of the following logic statement:

The apostle Paul prescribed alcohol (wine) to Timothy (1 Tim 5:23).
Alcohol is poisonous.

Therefore, Paul tried to poison Timothy.

I do not attempt to get into a logic debate. I merely show that the logic of man does not always prove the intent of scripture. Remember, God does not play by our rules and is not limited by our earthly knowledge.

James

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by Snow

Your point being that:

1. Any toxic substance kills one who consumes it.
2. We all drink alcohol.

Therefore: Alcohol can't be toxic because we aren't all dead.

Both your points are absurdly and demonstrably false so your conclusion is likewise absurd. Do I need to explain how and why?

I didn't say that.

Your insinuation is that alcohol is toxic and always leads to problems, a point which, is absurdly and demonstrably false.

Your points were equally absurd.

First we don't drink 100% alcohol. Second we don't drink Methanol. Thirdly there's many other things we use as a cleaning agent that we may eat or drink - vinegar, water (steam).

You give the notes about alcohol (while I think you're talking about Methanol, not Ethanol) as being basically fatal because of its toxicity.

Im not for one second saying people don't abuse alcohol, that's a separate issue, but the toxicity of which you speak I feel is a bit of a red herring because for the majority of people who consume alcohol responsibly it causes no side effect and in fact has many health benefits. The body is designed to detoxify itself. The brain cell killing which is one of the main arguments has largely been proven to be false.

Cya
Simon

[sjdean]

Originally Posted by jms.mills

Verse four of the Section 89 tells us the "reason" we are to abstain from alcohol (as well as the other substances mentioned). Evil and conspiring men are the reason for the this revelation. In my opinion any other "logical" explanation of why this revelation was given, while noble in intent, is unimportant. What is important is that God spoke and we listened.

That's all anybody really needs to know, and it shouldn't be down to any one group ridiculing another for their beliefs. I have experienced both the good side and bad side of alcohol (I say bad side - it's very minimal). I know what it can do and how it makes me.

Largely, I don't see the problems attributed to alcohol. I have never experienced them in myself, had medical issues because of it, so I heavily dislike people telling me that the alcohol prohibition is because of medical issues. I get myself checked out at the doctor regularly! Where are these toxic and poisoning side effects I read of so frequently? Why is the "temperance movement" theory of brain damage now heavily disputed by many?

So for me there has to be something else.

I like the idea of what the D&C say regarding evil and conspiring men, also the fact it was adapted for the weakest. Lets not forget, the weakest probably do have alcohol control problems, so in that regard, it makes absolute perfect sense.

I don't buy the idea that alcohol is this evil substance which is why its prohibited, but I do buy the idea that some people can't control them selves, and some people like to moan and complain about a problem of toxicity, death, and violence that largely doesn't exist unless you're an alcohol abuser. Our attitudes to alcohol are irresponsible and immature.

Now, if we followed the French!

Lutherans observe the celebration of the eucharist with consecreated wine in keeping with the tradition set by Jesus Christ at the Last Supper. Why is that shocking?

[Islander]

Originally Posted by WANDERER

To be honest, I hadn't even heard of the WOW until I joined this forum. There isn't any prohibition of alcohol, smoking or coffee that will prevent you from being baptised (as far as I know)

Edit: OOps...not that I want to get into a discussion on ordinances.

Obedience to the Word of Wisdom IS a prerequisite to baptism. That you can go outside soon after and give into the addiction the same hour is a different story.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by TheLutheran

Lutherans observe the celebration of the eucharist with consecreated wine in keeping with the tradition set by Jesus Christ at the Last Supper. Why is that shocking?

When I was about 13 I went with my grandmother to a Lutheran church, and took communion. After the service she asked me how the service was. I said, "Grandma, they used wine!!!"

To this day I am embarrassed that all of could think of after remembering the death, burial and resurrection of our LORD was the alcohol. Fortunately, grandma has lots of Norwegian stoicism, and did not say anything.

It's only shocking to those who do not know church history.