Non-LDS beliefs

[bytor2112]

We believe that Salvation must come to all mankind exactly the same way. From Adam to our time present. Every person who has ever lived or will ever live will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel, whether in this fallen sphere in which we now live or in the Spirit world after they pass from mortality. Each will have to accept Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized. This is why we perform sacred ordinances like baptism in Holy Temples around the world. The Savior himself was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". Confusion and contradiction still prevails in Christendom over how mankind is to be saved because of Christ's Atonement. One of the many reasons for the restored Gospel.

The verse from Alma...... refers to not waiting until the end of your life to repent. Repentance is a process. To repent we must have a mighty change of heart. We must turn away from our sins and strive to live a Christ like life...... like we truely are his followers.

If we still have lustful desires or addictions or whatever and we have not cleaned up our life.... if we have not had the Atonement of Jesus Christ in our lives.... the same spirit, the same thoughts and desires that we had in mortality will go with us in the spirit world.

To be a Christian.... to be a follower of Christ.... to be saved..... to recieve salvation because of the grace of Jesus Christ, because he drank of the Fathers bitter cup and bore our sins, our griefs, sorrows and afflictions.... we must strive to live his example."if you love me, keep my commandments." If we love him, if we are his.... we strive to keep his commandments. Is this salvation by works? Or is this being a true and faithful servant of the Savior of mankind?

We all must come to salvation in exactly the same way. Same ordinances. One faith, one baptism. God is perfect and as such it could be in no other way.

[Listener]

Regarding non-LDS traditions, Hebrews 11 and Romans 4 are the chapters most often mentioned.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

How are people who lived before the Savior "saved" according to non-LDS denominations?

Well, I searched somewhat among the recent talks of the prophets and the apostles of the church but with only mixed results. I will make it a point to research the subject in more detail.

In the last portion of Isaiah 28: the prophet is painting a very clear picture. THe field (ther earth) is His and He has control over all of it. We are all different and thus require special treatment. He "plants" us in different parts of the field and under very different conditions. Some are sheltered and protected (cummin) in clusters and surrounded by shade and int eh most humid portion of the field. Other require more structure and discipline, organized in rows (the wheat) and are expected to produce in high quantity. The barley at the end of teh field where there is rough terrain, salty terrain and not a lot of share but it will be well, the same.

So He knows and is aware of all of us on the earth, whether in long standing, very safe and traditional LDS communities, or in the middle of the Amazon jungle and cut of from all knowledge of God.

In Mosiah 3:8-11 speaks of the Savior and His Atonement. Verse 11 is quite interesting:
"For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned."

I suggest that the passage addresses the issue of those that died prior to the coming of the Christ and had no awareness of the Atonement.

Further, 1 Pet 4:6 it states:
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

And D&C 138 paint a more clear picture of what happens to those that died "in darkness" as the way for God to judge according to His mercies and justice:
56 "But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead."
• • •
57 "I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead."

From this very cursory overview of the scriptures is somewhat evident that God does have a plan. That He has made provisions for ALL his children and that He is a fair and just God and that He will avail salvation for all his children across all times, for that is His work and His glory; the salvation and immortality of men.

That would seem like a fairly basic assumption and position for Latter Day Saints.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

How are people who lived before the Savior "saved" according to non-LDS denominations?

Let's begin with the Hebrews. Since they believed in the Savior to come, they were saved (those who obeyed the covenant). As for the rest, some argue that they were damned to hell, because of the sins. Others would look to passages like Romans 1, and see the possibility that folk could respond to God based upon "general revelation," and perhaps be judged by a lesser standard "according to what they knew."

My simple answer is that I don't know, but that God is good and just and no one will second guess him on judgment day. On the other hand, within the church we ought to assume that those who do not know have slim chance of salvation, and so we must be especially motivated to spread the Good News.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Let's begin with the Hebrews. Since they believed in the Savior to come, they were saved (those who obeyed the covenant). As for the rest, some argue that they were damned to hell, because of the sins. Others would look to passages like Romans 1, and see the possibility that folk could respond to God based upon "general revelation," and perhaps be judged by a lesser standard "according to what they knew."

My simple answer is that I don't know, but that God is good and just and no one will second guess him on judgment day. On the other hand, within the church we ought to assume that those who do not know have slim chance of salvation, and so we must be especially motivated to spread the Good News.

A very interesting post – at least to me. Please let me ask a question. Is there, with in “the church”, any retribution (punishment – or less chance) for someone that has been redeemed of Christ but that does not reach out to another that then dies before hearing and therefore saved? Who would suffer the more or have the most slim chance? The one that searched but never believed in Christ or the believer in Christ that did not love his lost brother?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Traveler

A very interesting post – at least to me. Please let me ask a question. Is there, with in “the church”, any retribution (punishment – or less chance) for someone that has been redeemed of Christ but that does not reach out to another that then dies before hearing and therefore saved? Who would suffer the more or have the most slim chance? The one that searched but never believed in Christ or the believer in Christ that did not love his lost brother?

The Traveler

There is retribution for those who are redeemed, and do not testify of Christ. It can be rather severe. At one point Jesus said that if we are ashamed of him before men then he cannot speak on our behalf before the Father. In other words, at some point, the redeemed who refuses to let his or her light shine may not be truly redeemed.

Short of that, we do believe that there are rewards in heaven, and that those who do little will receive little reward. They'll be no paupers in the Kingdom of God, but we will be held accountable for our misdeeds and failures to obey.

There is also the promise in Scriptures that whoever searches with a sincere heart, will find God. So, it may be that the premise of your question is incorrect.

[VisionOfLehi]

I don't know how this is taught in other churches, but when Christ rose, wasn't there also a bunch of saints who rose with him? That was the FIRST big resurrection.

Those saints were more than just the patriarchs, right?

Is that how it's taught in other denominations?

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Originally Posted by VisionOfLehi

I don't know how this is taught in other churches, but when Christ rose, wasn't there also a bunch of saints who rose with him? That was the FIRST big resurrection.

Those saints were more than just the patriarchs, right?

Is that how it's taught in other denominations?

Actually, Matthew 27:50-53 talks about this. Most Denominational churches don't really teach on this subject. I have not heard this talked about much among many Evangelical Christians either.

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


What is also interesting is that at first reading this passage, there seems to be some bit of confusion. Yet, there is dual meaning in this passage. The graves were opened at Christ's death, but the resurrection of the saints did not occur until after Christ rose - thus being the First Fruits of the Resurrection. The reason why they did not rise after his (Christ) giving up the ghost is because Christ had to claim victory over death. It is here where the passage in 1 Peter (I think) where Christ went into hades to declare his victory over death and resurrection occurred. That he released those who were in prison and were bound by death. This also was two fold as well. Yet, this is only pertaining to the nature of the resurrection of Christ and the saints. Thus, the first resurrection has already occured. The second resurrection is awaiting to occur after Christ returns again. The second resurrection is going to be of both the Just and the Unjust. Why? Because unless there are a total of three resurrections, then we must conclude that there is only two until there is substantial scripture support for three. Which might be the case.

Hope this answers your question. Essentially - yes, scripture teaches that the saints were risen after Christ's resurrection because he was and is the first fruits of the Resurrection. What Evangelical Christians have a hard time to answer is the question of where are these saints with their physical bodies of flesh and bones? Once they were resurrected in the manner that Christ was resurrected, then they must possess a physical and glorified resurrected body, much like Christ possesses a physical resurrected glorified body.

Another support for LDS Theology and Doctrine biblically.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by SeattleTruthSeeker

Thus, the first resurrection has already occured. The second resurrection is awaiting to occur after Christ returns again. The second resurrection is going to be of both the Just and the Unjust. Why? Because unless there are a total of three resurrections, then we must conclude that there is only two until there is substantial scripture support for three. Which might be the case.

This is an excellent post but let us clarify an important notion about the resurrection of the dead. The scriptures tell us of three resurrections. The First (greatest or most noble) is Celestial, the second (not greatest and less noble) is the Terrestrial, and the third is the least great and least noble and is called the Telestial. (See 1Cor 15)

Some confuse the First, Second and Third resurrections as being in strict chronological order and count the number by when the resurrection begin. This is only true in part because there will be two first resurrections. One for the saints prior to Christ (that began when Jesus was resurrected) and the second - first resurrection for the saints after the admonition of Christ which will begin when Christ returns.

The second resurrection will not begin until all Celestial (or first) are completed. The third or Telestial will not start until the second (or Terrestrial) has been completed.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

There is retribution for those who are redeemed, and do not testify of Christ. It can be rather severe. At one point Jesus said that if we are ashamed of him before men then he cannot speak on our behalf before the Father. In other words, at some point, the redeemed who refuses to let his or her light shine may not be truly redeemed.

Short of that, we do believe that there are rewards in heaven, and that those who do little will receive little reward. They'll be no paupers in the Kingdom of God, but we will be held accountable for our misdeeds and failures to obey.

There is also the promise in Scriptures that whoever searches with a sincere heart, will find God. So, it may be that the premise of your question is incorrect.

I attempted to thank you for your post but the something goofy was going on and the site system would not let me.

This agrees with LDS doctrine - the one point is that in LDS doctrine a soul's probation is not over until sometime after they have suffered death - where we believe all that seek will indeed find G-d if the opportunity was not able to be completed correctly in this life – which means there was no authorized saint that declared the “fullness” of the Gospel of Christ to them.

Thanks again.

The Traveler