Listening to Spirits

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Traveler

The thread “talking to spirits” got me thinking – What influence do spirits have among us? Is everything we do associated directly or indirectly to our association with various spirits that we allow to encourage us? The concept of “agency” would apply that we are subject to (agents of) the spirits to whom we choose to listen.

The Traveler

The bible tends to be somewhat sparse and not very detailed when it comes to "familiar spirits" and contact with them that are dead. There is Saul and Jonathan that went to a wizard and we all know how that end up. What is clear is that we should not participate in any activity that relates to invoking/disturbing the spirits of the dead. God has dealt harshly with those that insist in doing things of that nature.

It is seductive and entertaining to some. It may even seem like empowerment but in fact it is contrary to God's commandments and thus a sin. A person my choose to interpret such activity however but it is clear from the bible that we should not mess with that stuff.

[Hemidakota]

Reminds of Isaiah 8:18-20

18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

19 ¶ And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah described a time in the last days when the world would be filled with despair, as Saul was. In that time, he says, many will seek the aid of familiar spirits, wizards, and those who "peep" and "mutter." He warns that those who seek such comfort shall receive little help, remain hungry, and continue to fret.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Islander

The bible tends to be somewhat sparse and not very detailed when it comes to "familiar spirits" and contact with them that are dead. There is Saul and Jonathan that went to a wizard and we all know how that end up. What is clear is that we should not participate in any activity that relates to invoking/disturbing the spirits of the dead. God has dealt harshly with those that insist in doing things of that nature.

It is seductive and entertaining to some. It may even seem like empowerment but in fact it is contrary to God's commandments and thus a sin. A person my choose to interpret such activity however but it is clear from the bible that we should not mess with that stuff.

Interesting take on scripture - it appears to me that Jesus cast out unclean spirits as often as he healed the sick.

So let me ask you directly - can one successfully persue the things of G-d without the assistance of the Holy Ghost? By this same token - can one rebell without a similar connection to unclean spirits?

Is it possible that some take too much credit to themselves and award too much blame to others? In essence is this exactly what Jesus asked us not to do?

The Traveler

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Interesting take on scripture - it appears to me that Jesus cast out unclean spirits as often as he healed the sick.

So let me ask you directly - can one successfully persue the things of G-d without the assistance of the Holy Ghost? By this same token - can one rebell without a similar connection to unclean spirits?

Is it possible that some take too much credit to themselves and award too much blame to others? In essence is this exactly what Jesus asked us not to do?

The Traveler

Traveler:

I am not sure about your question. I would just add that it is different to cast out devils and dismiss them asap, than to seek them out, ask them questions, court them in order to divine the future, know things and, specially, lucre with such activities.

If you look at "familiar spirits" in the bible you will not find one instance where God says it is OK. On the contrary.

[roytucker]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Reminds of Isaiah 8:18-20

<snip>
19 ¶ And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
<snip>

Isaiah described a time in the last days when the world would be filled with despair, as Saul was. In that time, he says, many will seek the aid of familiar spirits, wizards, and those who "peep" and "mutter." He warns that those who seek such comfort shall receive little help, remain hungry, and continue to fret.

I would like to examine your interpretation here a little more closely. The purpose of Isaiah's statement was not to instruct that getting contact from spirits is a bad thing. He is instead demonstrating the way that the people were going about it. The chapter is explaining how the house of Jacob is not looking to God, and in verse 19 he is pointing out that the people prefer to go to dubious sources for their spiritual guidance rather than ask God directly.

Interestingly, the Book of Mormon version clarifies the last statement: "should not a people seek unto their God for the living to hear from the dead?" That is, if you desire contact from an angelic source, such a request should always be through God.

Roy

[roytucker]

Originally Posted by Traveler

The thread “talking to spirits” got me thinking – What influence do spirits have among us? Is everything we do associated directly or indirectly to our association with various spirits that we allow to encourage us? The concept of “agency” would apply that we are subject to (agents of) the spirits to whom we choose to listen.

The Traveler

To give my thoughts on your original question, I believe spirits have tremendous influence on us. Moroni explained in Moroni 7 that the devil and his angels "inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually." On the other hand "that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually."

Mormon explains in Alma 3 that people "reap eternal happiness or eternal misery, according to the spirit which they listed to obey, whether it be a good spirit or a bad one."

John counseled to "try the spirits, whether they are of God." We cannot get around the reality that there is a spiritual world around us.

It might be a stretch for you to propose that everything we do is influenced by spirits, but it would be hard to deny their overall influence. And, of course, I agree that agency allows us to choose our master.

Roy

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Islander

Traveler:

I am not sure about your question. I would just add that it is different to cast out devils and dismiss them asap, than to seek them out, ask them questions, court them in order to divine the future, know things and, specially, lucre with such activities.

If you look at "familiar spirits" in the bible you will not find one instance where God says it is OK. On the contrary.

Do you think that the only way unclean spirits have influence in our lives is when they are saught - or will an unclean spiritual influence seek us out as in the example of Eve in the garden?

The Traveler

[Dove]

I have often had a sense of things from the spiritual side. I was once told in a priesthood blessing that I have former friends in the pre-existance who went to the adversary's side, and that they were specifically assigned to tempt me because they knew me so well. That was pretty powerful and spooky to me.
On the good side, I have often had a sense of loving people/spirits around me. I believe they are my deceased ancestry watching over me.
Isn't the spirit world here on earth, around us? There is a whole world of spirits and spirituality~for good or ill. I can't help but feel that they are a strong, if unseen, part of our lives. We do choose to whom/what we listen to, but that doesn't mean they aren't attempting to prompt us one way or another. I think they are more than we realize.

[WANDERER]

Zero belief in un-invited spirits possessing you....seems to be one of those spiritual laws...something to do with agency.
Temptation...okay. Ongoing harrassment...perhaps.. in some cases. God is faithful...no temptation that you cannot bear...no temptation that He will not help you stand up under it. Interesting wording isn't it: stand up under it.

Prayer is always an effective response. I don't think fear of the opposition is a healthy response...neither is constant doubt in fear of oppositional spiritual influences. Either you have trust and faith or you don't. Agency means that you don't get to write off your own behaviour or other people's behaviour as being under the influence of satan. That's weak. Agency means that you have the power to decide and make choices. Agency means that you have the final responsibility: you cannot blame good or evil for your choices. Agency means you know exactly which side you are backing when you make those choices and are deliberately choosing to succumb to temptation knowing full well you are going against God's plan for your life. I don't think it's all that subtle...temptation can be, but I also think you have to court it to some degree....but all subtlety is lost when it requires action on your behalf. I don't believe in the cloth human puppet idea of spiritual influences. I don't believe being LDS or non-LDS or atheist has a lot to do with whether your actions, thoughts or whatever can be ascribed to the influence of good or evil spirits....religious affiliation isn't a decider...a relationship with God is.

I think it might be an effective lie to prevent people from focussing on God and to get them dwelling on the behaviour of lesser spirits and in so doing make them appear to have greater power than they have...where focus goes energy flows. I think it would be far more productive to give the power over to God for things in your life. Paul talks about the full armour of God. Faith is your shield. And your feet should be shod with the gospel of peace. Ephesians 6. The gospel is meant to bring you peace...and you should only walk in the gospel of peace. We wrestle..yes..but with the power of God's might to help us. Now there is a scripture worth claiming in your life.

Anyway, that's what I think.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by WANDERER

Zero belief in un-invited spirits possessing you....seems to be one of those spiritual laws...something to do with agency.
Temptation...okay. Ongoing harrassment...perhaps.. in some cases. God is faithful...no temptation that you cannot bear...no temptation that He will not help you stand up under it. Interesting wording isn't it: stand up under it.

Prayer is always an effective response. I don't think fear of the opposition is a healthy response...neither is constant doubt in fear of oppositional spiritual influences. Either you have trust and faith or you don't. Agency means that you don't get to write off your own behaviour or other people's behaviour as being under the influence of satan. That's weak. Agency means that you have the power to decide and make choices. Agency means that you have the final responsibility: you cannot blame good or evil for your choices. Agency means you know exactly which side you are backing when you make those choices and are deliberately choosing to succumb to temptation knowing full well you are going against God's plan for your life. I don't think it's all that subtle...temptation can be, but I also think you have to court it to some degree....but all subtlety is lost when it requires action on your behalf. I don't believe in the cloth human puppet idea of spiritual influences. I don't believe being LDS or non-LDS or atheist has a lot to do with whether your actions, thoughts or whatever can be ascribed to the influence of good or evil spirits....religious affiliation isn't a decider...a relationship with God is.

I think it might be an effective lie to prevent people from focussing on God and to get them dwelling on the behaviour of lesser spirits and in so doing make them appear to have greater power than they have...where focus goes energy flows. I think it would be far more productive to give the power over to God for things in your life. Paul talks about the full armour of God. Faith is your shield. And your feet should be shod with the gospel of peace. Ephesians 6. The gospel is meant to bring you peace...and you should only walk in the gospel of peace. We wrestle..yes..but with the power of God's might to help us. Now there is a scripture worth claiming in your life.

Anyway, that's what I think.

I thought an agent was someone that represents (behaves for) someone else?

The Traveler