Denominations?

[jms.mills]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

Perhaps the definition of "church" is too narrow. According to the Bible, the church is the body of Christ (Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:24). All believers are a part of it (1 Corinthians 12:27). Salvation doesn't hinge on one's association with the Reformed or the Charismatic, the Presbyterian or the Pentecostal...

If one uses this line of reasoning, then at least two questions can be raised:

1) Who are the "believers" mentioned in this scripture?
2) What qualified these people to be believers?

In order to make a proper definition of a term, one must be able to define all of the words used in the definition itself. In this case, if one asserts that "all believers are a part" of the church, then one must be able to define what it means to believe and what it was these ancient members believed. At least one ancient Christian (Paul) taught the unity of one faith based on the "unified" Gospel the Lord Jesus Christ taught during his mortal ministry, not on sectarian positions (1 Cor 1:12-23).

[ErikJohnson]

Are you objecting to my post, jms.mills? Do you disagree the church is the body of Christ and that all believers are a part of it? Kindly explain where I am in error, with any definitions you choose--if this is your intent.

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

Perhaps the definition of "church" is too narrow. According to the Bible, the church is the body of Christ (Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:24). All believers are a part of it (1 Corinthians 12:27). Salvation doesn't hinge on one's association with the Reformed or the Charismatic, the Presbyterian or the Pentecostal...

Jesus was big on inclusiveness.

2) What qualified these people to be believers?

Their belief of course!

[jms.mills]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

Are you objecting to my post, jms.mills? Do you disagree the church is the body of Christ and that all believers are a part of it? Kindly explain where I am in error, with any definitions you choose--if this is your intent.

I do not disagree that the church is the figurative body of Christ. I only seek clarification on who (in your line of reasoning) you would include in the category of believers of Christ. There could be many different ways in which a person could "believe."

For example (this list is by no means conclusive):

1) One person may say a believer is one who simply acknowledges the existence of Christ (knowledge of Christ)
2) Another may say that a believer must follow the teachings of Christ (works). Then again, one must be able to define what teachings one must follow (another discussion... for anther thread).
3) Still some may say that one must acknowledge the divinity of Christ and realize that he/she is a sinner and requires the atonement that Christ paid to be free from those sins. (faith).
4) Member of a certain religious organization
5) Or, a combination of any of the above.

Personally, I feel that a person must acknowledge that Christ is his/her Savior, and follow the teachings of Christ to the best of their knowledge and ability. As to what those teachings are... that is another discussion. In my opinion, as long as an individual is honestly trying to follow the teachings of Christ (as they understand them) then they are true believers. Then, the individual must ally themselves to an organization, so they can commune with other believers. In the end, only the individual and God knows the inner heart and intentions of one's soul.


That said, the early church was organized as one "body." There were no divisions at that time. Any divisions/conflicts that did arise were met with quick and firm correction (hence, the reason many of Paul's letters to clarify doctrine). In the context of the early church, the body was, indeed, "all believers" of Christ. Today, I do not feel that verse has near the same application that it did when Paul penned his letters. If you are trying to say that Paul is somehow allowing/dismissing denominational differences in this verse(s), this is where I disagree. To say that Paul is condoning a denominational fracture of the church, in my opinion, would be taking the scripture(s) out of context.

I am misunderstanding you?

JMS

[jms.mills]

sorry.. double post

[ErikJohnson]

Hi jms.mills--

Regarding who I would consider to be "in the category of believers in Christ" as you put it, I would answer all Christians. And a Christian is someone who worships Jesus as God.

You can come up with a million what-if scenarios and ask me whether such a person is really a believer in the God of the Bible. I don't think it's worth time to play that game. We can judge bad fruit, of course, including theology that openly contradicts Scripture. But ultimately only God can discern the human heart.

--Erik

[abqfriend]

Here is some verses from Acts 12;

Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. 20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the LORD Jesus. 21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. 22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. 23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. 24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. 25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

-Carol

[jms.mills]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

You can come up with a million what-if scenarios and ask me whether such a person is really a believer in the God of the Bible. I don't think it's worth time to play that game. We can judge bad fruit, of course, including theology that openly contradicts Scripture. But ultimately only God can discern the human heart.

I could not agree more.

Yet, I still believe there are many individuals out in the Christian world who still have a hard time believing that Christ's original intent was to have one church, united under one doctrine. Paul made it extremely clear that there was room for only one doctrine in the early church. If it was the case then, why is that not the case now? That would bring us to the question that Joseph Smith had: Which church is true?

Regarding your comment about "theology that openly contradicts scripture," this argument has been batted around for centuries between many, many denominations. So, if this is your argument against the LDS theology, are you willing to consider other "denominations" heretical as well (you seem to imply that LDS doctrine is heretical)? At what point does a theology become heretical? Who draws that line? (The obvious answer is God) However, who on this earth can draw that line? If there is such a person, how and why do they have the authority to declare one doctrine or another heresy?

As I agreed with you earlier, I believe only God can judge a man's heart. I do not declare other churches heretical. Just the opposite. I understand that many other churches are full of honest people who are doing their best to live a Christ-centered life. This does not conflict with my belief that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days is the true Church of Christ, as originally established by Christ himself.

Respectfully,
JMS

[jms.mills]

Originally Posted by abqfriend

And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

It is funny you mention this scripture. I was watching a documentary on the Early Church last night. They mentioned the same bit of Bible trivia... just thought I would say thanks for the repetition... it will help me cement this information in the ol' memory bank.

[brother01]

Truth is always difficult to deal with, especially when we are seriously invested on a position contrary to it. Regardless of whether we know it or not.
I tend to avoid the theological arguments since I rather concentrate on what God hs revealed to me personally thru the Spirit. The issue at hand is simple. Either Joseph saw The Father and The Son or not. The evidence for the Book of Mormon rests within the pages of the book itself. We invite ALL to search and inquire of God, who is the creator and arbiter of ALL truth if such testimony as the one we bare is also true.

According to Jesus, He is the way, truth and light. Jesus revealed Himself, we can all read the testimony of Jesus Christ in the Bible. It was the Holy Scriptures that foretold Him and it is the Holy Scriptures that reveal Him as well, but it is the Holy Spirit by which God allows us to see Jesus for Who He is and understand Him and His teachings. Jesus never taught the disciples to expect direct revelation, but that the Holy Spirit would cause them to remember what He had taught them. The Holy Spirit enlightens the words of Jesus Christ, but Jesus also spoke plainly on many things to reveal the true doctrine of God.

As such, and according to the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Holy Scriptures, the matter is to keep to what He said and do it because you believe He is who He said He is, that if He is your Lord, you will do what He said. "Blessed is he who hears and does" is the message of Jesus.

So the message of Jesus Christ is not to worry about whether Joseph saw Jesus and the Father, but if Jesus spoke the truth of God and if He told the truth when He said that both His words and the word of God in the Holy Scriptures is imperishable by any means. If Jesus spoke truth, then the matter is to come to know what He taught, not in seeking to add to or take away from what He taught.

Do you do what Jesus said? Do you keep the over 200 teachings of Jesus?

Check it out!

One Disciple to Another

John 14:23,24; "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."

John 15:9,10; "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you, abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in in His love."

Luke 24:44-49;

"Then He said to them, ‘These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.’ And He opened their understanding that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

"Then He said to them, ‘Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things. Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high."