Denominations?

[AnthonyB]

Traveler,

I’d agree wholeheartedly that the new covenant begins with baptism; it is where in God’s design we obtain remission of sins and enter the covenant.

I’d agree the church was much more pagan (and parts of it remain much more pagan) then they should be.

I don’t know whether you got my distinction between restoration and redemption, so I’ll run through some biblical examples of how I see God works and why I think my thoughts are the kind of thing He is likely to do.

Adam and Eve lived in the garden in innocence, a garden which God visited. They ate gained the knowledge of good and evil and were expelled.

Restoration: Would be to return man to the garden and return us to innocence.

Redemption: Giving us a new home with God, and using the knowledge of good and evil to be used that we may have a deeper relationship with God.

Jesus was physically abused and murdered by man.

Restoration: Would be giving Him His human body back and healing/removing all the wounds.

Redemption: Is giving Him a resurrected body, and leaving the wounds as an eternal reminder of the love of God for man.

A restoration takes things back to (or as near as possible) its original condition. Redemption (as God seems to do it in the scriptures) uses part of the negative and turns it into a greater positive then could have been achieved by merely restoring.

(As for the priesthood restoration, that is something we will never agree on, else one of changes our faith tradition.)

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Traveler

PC: I regret deeply that I have missed the opportunity to met with you personally and spent some time discussing with you some of your views. ...

I do not doubt but that you are doing an excellent and inspired work. I believe many are doing inspired work to bring goodness and peace. I count among such a devout Hindu, a very dedicated Buddhist priest involved with the Dali Lama, an Islamic scholar with family and ties and friends in war devastated places like Iraq as well as you. All are certain that G-d has called them and directed them to administer spiritual and physical aid.

I too have worked with religious volunteers and clergy from many faith traditions, including yours, including Jehovah's Witnesses, and including many faiths outside the Christian tradition. And, yes, the all observe the Golden Rule, and would all likely practice the two greatest commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) as they understood them. But, they did not all offer the Way, Truth and Life. We did not argue or debate who's gospel is right, however, We all let our lights shine, as we ministered to inmates, according to the dictates of our faith.

I believe we are all allies in a desperate struggle facing overwhelming darkness and evil. I know that you and I differ in many key and important ideas including that you expect to find sanctuary and relief from the struggle at the most desperate hour, as does my Islamic friend. In contrast I believe a small stone was cut out from the traditional mountain of religious thinking (when the empire of Iron and clay {Roman empire of medieval and pre-modern Europe} was divided into 10 kingdoms) by the hand of G-d and is quietly rolling forth in our day gathering strength according to prophesy. I believe that to preserve family and the sacred institution of marriage (among other things) as ordained by G-d there will come a time where there will remain only one place for faithful to gather in the house hold of Ephraim as restored by the prediction of ancient prophesy and established by modern prophets ordained by actual face to face encounters with angles known from the past and sent to complete what was started anciently. If I still have breath at what appears as the last desperate hour – I hope to be there.

As the ancient prophesies unfold, I fully expect that you will continue and not abandon the cause to which you feel inspired. I am quite sure – as I think you also believe – that there is only one kingdom that will inherit and welcome the King when he returns.

The Traveler

Your experiences and your grasp on my perspective, those of others, and, your own confident expression of faith are all admirable.

[MrNirom]

Funny.. restoration and redemption.

Prior to the 2nd coming.. the earth will be "restored" to its paradisaical Glory. And then at the end of the millennial reign.. it will be redeemed and resurrected to become the celestial body it was designed for.

The earth has already been born.. then baptized. It only needs the Baptism of Fire.. redemption and resurrection. Just like us. :-)

[Islander]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

Traveler,

I’d agree wholeheartedly that the new covenant begins with baptism; it is where in God’s design we obtain remission of sins and enter the covenant.

I’d agree the church was much more pagan (and parts of it remain much more pagan) then they should be.

I don’t know whether you got my distinction between restoration and redemption, so I’ll run through some biblical examples of how I see God works and why I think my thoughts are the kind of thing He is likely to do.

Adam and Eve lived in the garden in innocence, a garden which God visited. They ate gained the knowledge of good and evil and were expelled.

Restoration: Would be to return man to the garden and return us to innocence.

You apply a very narrow definition to "Restoration" here. To restore an antiquity work of art, for example, is not to re-do it as if it were new. It is to bring back its former brightness, contour, form or pieces/portions that have been damaged/missing.

Redemption: Giving us a new home with God, and using the knowledge of good and evil to be used that we may have a deeper relationship with God.

Jesus was physically abused and murdered by man.

Restoration: Would be giving Him His human body back and healing/removing all the wounds.

Again, we refer to Restoration as far as the doctrine as they were in the ancient church not referring to the Savior.

Redemption: Is giving Him a resurrected body, and leaving the wounds as an eternal reminder of the love of God for man.


A restoration takes things back to (or as near as possible) its original condition. Redemption (as God seems to do it in the scriptures) uses part of the negative and turns it into a greater positive then could have been achieved by merely restoring.

(As for the priesthood restoration, that is something we will never agree on, else one of changes our faith tradition.)

You apply a very narrow definition to "Restoration" here. To restore an antiquity work of art, for example, is not to re-do it as if it were new. It is to bring back its former brightness, contour, form or pieces/portions that have been damaged/missing. Jesus was NOT Redeemed from the cross. WE are redeemed or in other words, Christ paid thru the Atonement the penalty for sin, which is eternal death and damnation. We are redeemed by HIM

As far as the keys of the priesthood and prophesy you may want to read 2Kings 2:11-14 as an example that they exist and that they are passed on according to the will and order of God. But again, since this is a new concept, perhaps, for you it may be difficult to grasp unless you can allow for the possibility that it may be a true concept and doctrine set forth from God. We refer to Restoration as far as the doctrine as they were in the ancient church not referring to the Savior.

.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

I too have worked with religious volunteers and clergy from many faith traditions, including yours, including Jehovah's Witnesses, and including many faiths outside the Christian tradition. And, yes, the all observe the Golden Rule, and would all likely practice the two greatest commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) as they understood them. But, they did not all offer the Way, Truth and Life. We did not argue or debate who's gospel is right, however, We all let our lights shine, as we ministered to inmates, according to the dictates of our faith.
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Your experiences and your grasp on my perspective, those of others, and, your own confident expression of faith are all admirable.

Your statement:

all observe the Golden Rule, and would all likely practice the two greatest commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) as they understood them. But, they did not all offer the Way, Truth and Life.

This concept of not offering "the Way, Truth and Life" is of great interest to me. Many years ago while in college I was taking a Philosophy class when a question was raised. Most everyone at some point thinks they have access to truth that others (especially others that disagree) do not have. The question is, “What is the difference between truth and what is perceived as truth?” Or how do you determine when you know the truth from when you think you know the truth?

The logical answer is that when there is more than one that perceive the truth differently there are only two possibilities. Ether all are in error or there is one that perceives correctly and the rest are in error. I know that some argue that because of relativity that there are different perceptions of the same truth but they do not understand that the difference can be logically and accurately accounted for based on the frame of reference. If the difference cannot be accounted for, then there must, in “truth” be a difference.

The point I am trying to make – or ask; is how does one validate their access to the way, truth and life when others are just as sure that the first are in error in their perception and that some different way, truth and life is valid?

If you use the Bible for validation why would G-d change the method of validation of truth based on pre and post compilation of the Bible? And how is the Bible validated – especially when there are different versions both ancient and modern? Some argue that the difference is negligible – but if you are off by even 1 tenth of one percent on your way to the moon you will miss it completely. That kind of error to arrive at the next closest star would be a joke. How much error can there be in way, truth and life to eternity?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

How to validate truth? The Bible, of course, is a huge validator of truth, for most Christians. However, not only can you rightly ask about faith before the Bible, but you might also ask, how do we know the Bible is true?

To your first question, before the word was published, it was spoken and taught orally. Adam and Eve passed on instructions to their children, and their children interacted with God and continued to pass along information. Moses began his writings somewhere between 2000 - 1400 BC or so, though it's been suggested that Job predates Moses. So, there was the spoken word, there was the wisdom of the elders, and people had their personal interaction with God.

2. Today, we rely heavily on the Bible because it has proven itself over the course of centuries. Additionally, we continue to rely on oral proclammation, upon the counsel of our elders, and upon our personal interactions with God.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

How to validate truth? The Bible, of course, is a huge validator of truth, for most Christians. However, not only can you rightly ask about faith before the Bible, but you might also ask, how do we know the Bible is true?

To your first question, before the word was published, it was spoken and taught orally. Adam and Eve passed on instructions to their children, and their children interacted with God and continued to pass along information. Moses began his writings somewhere between 2000 - 1400 BC or so, though it's been suggested that Job predates Moses. So, there was the spoken word, there was the wisdom of the elders, and people had their personal interaction with God.

2. Today, we rely heavily on the Bible because it has proven itself over the course of centuries. Additionally, we continue to rely on oral proclammation, upon the counsel of our elders, and upon our personal interactions with God.

Again since there are many ancient oral traditions that make the same claim of origin with Adam and Eve and that also claim to have been proven over time (for example Judaism, Islam and Zoroasterism). How do you validate your interpretation of things over their claims or even the claims of Nestorian Christians – all of which claim to have maintained their traditions and scriptures (exception of Islam who have published their scriptures just slightly longer – but have not modified their versions since their first publication) longer than you have based on Western Christianity?

I have seen some of the debates between Dedot (Islam scholar) and Western Christian Scholars and to be honest Islam makes a much more compelling case for validity and consistency of scriptures for the last 1500 years. Also the argument the Pharisees and Scribes used to question the validity of Jesus was the same as yours. I do not say this because I do not understand your argument and your validation – it is my perception that to a hammer everything looks very much like a nail or something similar to a nail.

If someone’s arguments are as compelling as yours – do you validate their claim by your standard and expect them to not validate your claim by their standard? The golden Rule you previously spoke of? Has G-d left us with means (spiritual or otherwise) to seek truth – including scientific (physical) truths?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, let me start by saying that the LDS practice of praying for a witness of the Spirit is absolutely legitimate, despite what some fundamentalist Christian bretheren might say. Ultimately we believe because we cognatively find the faith compelling, and spiritually we feel it's truth and goodness.

As for the merits of the Bible vs. the Quran, the latter may "win" for consistency and the certainty that it's current form is as the prophet intended it. On the other hand, I see quite a miracle in the Bible, compiled over a 1400 year span of time by 40 different authors from varied backgrounds, written in 3 different languages, and with such a large pool of manuscripts that show very little variance. Discussing the "Catholic" books or the Nesotorian canon would move me will out of my expertise...but hopefully I've provided enough for folks to see my foundation.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

Islander,

Thank you for your reply. I do realise that your claim rests on the truthfulness of Joseph Smith's revelation. However one of your selling points is the disunity of the rest of the Christian church.

Remember Anthony, not all us depend upon Joseph Smith revelation for our own testimony. It is matter of asking the GOD on what is true or not. Having enough faith, hope, and following the 'will of the FATHER', we can receive a personal answer.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Traveler, let me start by saying that the LDS practice of praying for a witness of the Spirit is absolutely legitimate, despite what some fundamentalist Christian bretheren might say. Ultimately we believe because we cognatively find the faith compelling, and spiritually we feel it's truth and goodness.

As for the merits of the Bible vs. the Quran, the latter may "win" for consistency and the certainty that it's current form is as the prophet intended it. On the other hand, I see quite a miracle in the Bible, compiled over a 1400 year span of time by 40 different authors from varied backgrounds, written in 3 different languages, and with such a large pool of manuscripts that show very little variance. Discussing the "Catholic" books or the Nesotorian canon would move me will out of my expertise...but hopefully I've provided enough for folks to see my foundation.

Sometimes I count you the better man my friend PC. I feel that my mission and calling is to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable.


The Traveler