The Sacrament of Holy Communion

abqfriend · #1 (**permalink**) 09-09-2008, 04:29 PM

This thread comes from a discussion on the Alcohol Thread on the the sacrament of Holy Communion.

Here is the quote in part: "i suppose we can use lemonade if we want lol, anything would be fine so long as it is non alcoholic."

A point was made by a member that anything but an alcohol based drink (ie Wine) would be OK for the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

As a Catholic-I consider a Sacrament as something Holy or Sacred.
I can see a view whereby one would wish to use non-fermented wine in such a sacrament or use wine-as is the case in the Catholic Church and other churches.

I know of no church that uses Lemonade or similar in such a sacrament.
What is the LDS position?-and why?-is grape juice used? water? -or does it not matter?

If you are of another faith tradition-please share your understandings also.

-Carol

bytor2112 · #2 (**permalink**) 09-09-2008, 06:22 PM

We use water. The Sacrament prayer is found in Moroni Ch. 4 and Ch. 5. You may notice that the prayer says "wine". Doctrine and Covenants Ch. 27 verse2, explains that it does not matter what is used for the Sacrament if it is done with an eye single to Chrits's glory.

abqfriend · #3 (**permalink**) 09-09-2008, 08:21 PM

So-or are there limitations-and who decides?
This D&C was in Harmony Pennsylvania-what about before that date?

so-since August 1830-the date of the D&C Section 27-has the LDS Church always used water?

-Carol

Quote:

Originally Posted by bytor2112

We use water. The Sacrament prayer is found in Moroni Ch. 4 and Ch. 5. You may notice that the prayer says "wine". Doctrine and Covenants Ch. 27 verse2, explains that it does not matter what is used for the Sacrament if it is done with an eye single to Chrits's glory.

Moksha · #4 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 12:14 AM

Pretty sure the Methodists use grape juice. Anyway, since we view the Eucharist as substitutionary, I suppose extending that substitution of water as being symbolic of the blood of Christ, rather than wine, is not a huge stretch. Water does seem a bit anemic in that sense, but it sure does make for less stains on all those white shirts.

Abqfriend, I don't know if you have attended a Mormon Sacrament meeting before, but feel free if you would like to, in order to get a better view of this first hand.

jimuk · #5 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 10:58 AM

It was me who mentioned " Lemonade " i was getting at the fact that even lemonade would be preferable and more suitable than Alcohol.

abqfriend · #6 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 12:25 PM

As a Catholic Christian-I could not see Lemonade ever being used in the Sacrament. I could see grape juice used instead of wine-as is the case in some Protestant faith traditions-but I could not see Lemonade used.
I also would have a problem with water-but more of a problem with Lemonade or the teaching/revelation that anything could be used in the Sacrament as long as with a good intention as revealed in D&C 27:2

I should attend an LDS sacramental service sometime-but I would refrain myself from taking communion-as I would do in visiting any non Catholic church.
-Carol

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimuk

It was me who mentioned " Lemonade " i was getting at the fact that even lemonade would be preferable and more suitable than Alcohol.

Iggy · #7 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abqfriend

As a Catholic Christian-I could not see Lemonade ever being used in the Sacrament. I could see grape juice used instead of wine-as is the case in some Protestant faith traditions-but I could not see Lemonade used.
I also would have a problem with water-but more of a problem with Lemonade or the teaching/revelation that anything could be used in the Sacrament as long as with a good intention as revealed in D&C 27:2

I should attend an LDS sacramental service sometime-but I would refrain myself from taking communion-as I would do in visiting any non Catholic church.
-Carol

Carol, really, what difference would it really make? It seems to me that you are nit picking this to death. Is it because water, lemonade, etc is not the color of blood?

We use bread (any kind of bread) and water. What about members who live in third world countries who do not know what bread is? Then I presume that they would use something similar.

I also get the impression that you feel we are not as reverent regarding our Sacrament, that we are a bit cavalier about it. We are not. It is a very solemn and reverent service. Even the very young children are reverent and mostly quiet during this service. I was noticing last Sunday that the passing of the Sacrament now takes 20 minutes in our Ward- compared to the 9 minutes when I first moved here. That is how big our Ward has grown!

The LDS do not believe that the bread and water are in fact the literal body and blood of Christ. We believe that the bread and water stand in similitude - We partake of it in remembrance of Him.

Here are the prayers:
Doctrine & Covenants 20: 77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this abread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and bwitness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his ccommandments which he has given them; that they may always have his dSpirit to be with them. Amen.

79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this awine (water) to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.
Bold added by me.

The underlined words bread and wine are referenced:
Bread: Luke CHAPTER 22 19 ¶ And he took abread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my bbody which is cgiven for you: this do in dremembrance of me.

Wine: D&C 27: 2-4. 2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall aeat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my bglory—cremembering unto the Father my dbody which was laid down for you, and my eblood which was shed for the fremission of your sins.

I take this meaning that we could use cows or goats milk, coconut milk, or fruit juice as long as we did so in reverence. We could use crackers, corn chips, or tortillas.

If we did need to use something other than water- say the water in our area is totally undrinkable, then our Bishop and Stake President would get permission from the First Presidency to do so. At least that is how the line of authority goes in our Church. The Bishop goes to the Stake President, the Stake President goes to the First Presidency.

abqfriend · #8 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 06:02 PM

Thankyou-our views on the Sacrament and the significance or non-significance of wine/grape juice and unleavened bread are different in observance of the sacrament-thus the difference in religious tradition of each of us.
Thank You for sharing.

breeb · #9 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abqfriend

As a Catholic Christian-I could not see Lemonade ever being used in the Sacrament. I could see grape juice used instead of wine-as is the case in some Protestant faith traditions-but I could not see Lemonade used.
I also would have a problem with water-but more of a problem with Lemonade or the teaching/revelation that anything could be used in the Sacrament as long as with a good intention as revealed in D&C 27:2

I should attend an LDS sacramental service sometime-but I would refrain myself from taking communion-as I would do in visiting any non Catholic church.
-Carol

Traditionally its bread and water. The way I look at it is lets say there was some kind of disaster where certain items were unattainable. Say there is no bread available. It is more important to take the sacrament. Therefore we would substitute bread with something similar.
What would the Catholic church do in such a matter? Just out of curiousity.

abqfriend · #10 (**permalink**) 09-10-2008, 11:26 PM

There is no true Sacrament according to the- Catholic Church unless the Priest transubstantiates (I know -a big word-means "change") the unleavened bread - made of wheat and water only) and the wine--set apart for sacramental use--to the "body, blood, soul and divinity" as the Catholic Church understands it--of Christ.
We believe we are taking in the actual body/blood of Christ in the Sacrament as we understand it.
We also have the "reserved sacrament" which are the hosts/bread not distributed during a given service/mass. These are given to specially trained Eucharistic Ministers who can carry the sacred host/bread in a special container to the sick and shut-in of the parish as well as to Catholics in hospitals and nursing homes. - So they can partake of the Sacrament without having been to Mass through no fault of their own.
Weekly Mass is a Requirement of our faith-and it is considered a sin to not go to Mass unless prevented from going so by sickness or ill health.
If you visit a Catholic Church-you will see an area with a candle or light upon it always-where the reserved sacrament is placed-we consider this a very holy place. One reason why Catholics bow/genuflect before entering the pew is in humble respect for Christ being truly present as we understand it. We also make the sign of the cross as a reminder to us of our Baptism-baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit- so there is much symbolism present in our worship/liturgy to remind us of the sacraments as we understand them. We take a small amount of water-sometimes called holy water-as the water has been set aside for sacramental use-to make the sign of the cross upon us when entering and leaving church-again to remind us of our baptism.
I realize the meaning of the sacraments and symbolism of our Church may be different than those of the LDS Church.
-Carol

-so-there would be no Mass, No Sacrament unless this were present.
There is a thing called "reserved sacrament" whereby the body/host is taken in a special container to the sick and shut-ins by Eucharistic Ministers who can distribute the Eucharist.
We have assistants in our Mass-specially trained people-who are allowed to distribute the Sacrament.

Quote:

Originally Posted by breeb

Traditionally its bread and water. The way I look at it is lets say there was some kind of disaster where certain items were unattainable. Say there is no bread available. It is more important to take the sacrament. Therefore we would substitute bread with something similar.
What would the Catholic church do in such a matter? Just out of curiousity.