We can become gods?

[Yekcidmij]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

I agree they were unjust elohim that were condemned to die. That was what I was driving at, since someone had suggested that it was referring to earthly judges and not divine beings. I thought the NAB helped bring that concept out better.

Ah, I think it's a common misconception that it's refering to earthly, human judges. That is what the Jews thought (cf: m. avot and Targum Isaiah), but that's definitely not what the passage is talking about. The passage talks about divine elohim in an assembly.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Yekcidmij

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I was using Deut 6:4 in terms of the context it occurs in. It refers to the uniqueness of Israel's God and that He is the sole object of their worship. It is not an analysis of the inner being, contrary to what PassionForHisWord says. It has nothing to do with unity either. Neither of those are the appropriate context of Deuteronomy. It has to do with uniquness and devotion.

........

In Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4 the ancient Hebrew word from which the English word “one” is translated is “ehad”. This word has two possible understandings. One meaning is a united plural meaning. An example of ehad as a plural united meaning is being “one” in marriage.

The singular meaning of ehad is that of complete singular uniqueness even in expression without divisions. This singularity is in complete opposition to the doctrine of the Trinity and the divisions of G-d into persons of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If ehad is to be understood in singular context and not a plural multiple context, then there is no Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If G-d was singular but having distinguishable and different addressable understandings such as Father, Son and Holy Ghost the correct Hebrew term would be ‘Yhead”.

If you are a Christian and believe Jesus is the Son of G-d then you only have one option in reality with the oneness of G-d expressed in scripture. That is to believe that Jesus and the Father are one in the same way that a husband and wife are one in marriage. This is the same as the ancient covenant of citizens of a Kingdom. That is that the Suzerain and his Vassal heir are one.

The uniqueness is in the entire structure of the Kingdom and all apointed and lawful representivies within that structure. Rejecting even the lowest citizen of such a Kingdom was considered a rejection of the very King. The oneness is in reference to everything associated or under the direction of that G-d.

The Traveler

[Yekcidmij]

Originally Posted by Traveler

In Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4 the ancient Hebrew word from which the English word “one” is translated is “ehad”. This word has two possible understandings. One meaning is a united plural meaning. An example of ehad as a plural united meaning is being “one” in marriage.

The singular meaning of ehad is that of complete singular uniqueness even in expression without divisions. This singularity is in complete opposition to the doctrine of the Trinity and the divisions of G-d into persons of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If ehad is to be understood in singular context and not a plural multiple context, then there is no Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If G-d was singular but having distinguishable and different addressable understandings such as Father, Son and Holy Ghost the correct Hebrew term would be ‘Yhead”.

If you are a Christian and believe Jesus is the Son of G-d then you only have one option in reality with the oneness of G-d expressed in scripture. That is to believe that Jesus and the Father are one in the same way that a husband and wife are one in marriage. This is the same as the ancient covenant of citizens of a Kingdom. That is that the Suzerain and his Vassal heir are one.

The uniqueness is in the entire structure of the Kingdom and all apointed and lawful representivies within that structure. Rejecting even the lowest citizen of such a Kingdom was considered a rejection of the very King. The oneness is in reference to everything associated or under the direction of that G-d.

The Traveler

I realize what "one" means. Clearly in the context of Deuteronomy it is talking about devotion and worship of one, unique God. It has nothing to do with analyzing the inner being of God. It has nothing to do with believing or denying that other deities exist or don't exist. It has nothing to do with Trinitarian theology and nothing to do with unity within a Godhead. Those are not the purposes of the author. If you understand Deuteronomy 6:4 as refering to devotion and worship of this rather unique God, then it flows right along with the surrounding context.

Deuteronomy 4:15 is where it starts and it goes through chapter 11-ish. I won't post all of it (it's entirely too much) but I will highlight some things surrounding the passage in question, all of it should be read though:

4:15 Be very careful, then, because you saw no form at the time the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the middle of the fire. 4:16 I say this so you will not corrupt yourselves by making an image in the form of any kind of figure. This includes the likeness of a human male or female, 4:17 any kind of land animal, any bird that flies in the sky, 4:18 anything that crawls on the ground, or any fish in the deep waters of the earth. 4:19 When you look up to the sky and see the sun, moon, and stars – the whole heavenly creation – you must not be seduced to worship and serve them, for the Lord your God has assigned them to all the people of the world. 4:20 You, however, the Lord has selected and brought from Egypt, that iron-smelting furnace, to be his special people as you are today. 4:21 But the Lord became angry with me because of you and vowed that I would never cross the Jordan nor enter the good land that he 36 is about to give you. 4:22 So I must die here in this land; I will not cross the Jordan. But you are going over and will possess that good land. 4:23 Be on guard so that you do not forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he has made with you, and that you do not make an image of any kind, just as he has forbidden you. 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire; he is a jealous God.

4:25 After you have produced children and grandchildren and have been in the land a long time, if you become corrupt and make an image of any kind and do other evil things before the Lord your God that enrage him, 4:26 I invoke heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that you will surely and swiftly be removed from the very land you are about to cross the Jordan to possess. You will not last long there because you will surely be annihilated. 4:27 Then the Lord will scatter you among the peoples and there will be very few of you among the nations where the Lord will drive you. 4:28 There you will worship gods made by human hands – wood and stone that can neither see, hear, eat, nor smell. 4:29 But if you seek the Lord your God from there, you will find him, if, indeed, you seek him with all your heart and soul. 4:30 In your distress when all these things happen to you in the latter days, if you return to the Lord your God and obey him 4:31 (for he is a merciful God), he will not let you down or destroy you, for he cannot forget the covenant with your ancestors that he confirmed by oath to them.

4:32 Indeed, ask about the distant past, starting from the day God created humankind on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether there has ever been such a great thing as this, or even a rumor of it. 4:33 Have a people ever heard the voice of God speaking from the middle of fire, as you yourselves have, and lived to tell about it? 4:34 Or has God ever before tried to deliver a nation from the middle of another nation, accompanied by judgments, signs, wonders, war, strength, power, and other very terrifying things like the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes? 4:35 You have been taught that the Lord alone is God – there is no other besides him. 4:36 From heaven he spoke to you in order to teach you, and on earth he showed you his great fire from which you also heard his words. 4:37 Moreover, because he loved your ancestors, he chose their descendants who followed them and personally brought you out of Egypt with his great power 4:38 to dispossess nations greater and stronger than you and brought you here this day to give you their land as your property. 4:39 Today realize and carefully consider that the Lord is God in heaven above and on earth below – there is no other! 4:40 Keep his statutes and commandments that I am setting forth today so that it may go well with you and your descendants and that you may enjoy longevity in the land that the Lord your God is about to give you as a permanent possession.

In chapter 4 Moses is reminding people of what God had done for them, and he is imploring them to obey and worship God and God alone. Don't worship the stars like your neighbors. What other god has dared invade a land other than his own? What other god speaks out of a fire? Remember the covenant he made with us! Remember Egypt! Follow God and God alone. Don't go after the gods of the land we are about to go into. That's what Moses is trying to tell the people.

Moses continues this in chapter 5:

5:1 Then Moses called all the people of Israel together and said to them: “Listen, Israel, to the statutes and ordinances that I am about to deliver to you today; learn them and be careful to keep them! 5:2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 5:3 He did not make this covenant with our ancestors but with us, we who are here today, all of us living now. 5:4 The Lord spoke face to face with you at the mountain, from the middle of the fire.

5:32 Be careful, therefore, to do exactly what the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn right or left! 5:33 Walk just as he has commanded you so that you may live, that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land you are going to possess.

Moses is imploring the people to covenant obedience. They hold up their end of the covenant because God has been gracious enough, not only to enter into a covenant with them, but He has held up to His end of the deal. "Listen Israel" (Shema Yisrael!), "remember what God did for you".

And the immediate context of Deut 6:4:

6:1 Now these are the commandments, statutes, and ordinances that the Lord your God instructed me to teach you so that you may carry them out in the land where you are headed 6:2 and that you may so revere the Lord your God that you will keep all his statutes and commandments that I am giving you – you, your children, and your grandchildren – all your lives, to prolong your days. 6:3 Pay attention, Israel, and be careful to do this so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in number – as the Lord, God of your ancestors, said to you, you will have a land flowing with milk and honey.


6:4 Listen, Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! 6:5 You must love the Lord your God with your whole mind, your whole being, and all your strength.


6:6 These words I am commanding you today must be kept in mind, 6:7 and you must teach them to your children and speak of them as you sit in your house, as you walk along the road, as you lie down, and as you get up. 6:8 You should tie them as a reminder on your forearm and fasten them as symbols on your forehead. 6:9 Inscribe them on the doorframes of your houses and gates.


6:10 Then when the Lord your God brings you to the land he promised your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to give you – a land with large, fine cities you did not build, 6:11 houses filled with choice things you did not accumulate, hewn out cisterns you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant – and you eat your fill, 6:12 be careful not to forget the Lord who brought you out of Egypt, that place of slavery. 6:13 You must revere the Lord your God, serve him, and take oaths using only his name. 6:14 You must not go after other gods, those of the surrounding peoples, 6:15 for the Lord your God, who is present among you, is a jealous God and his anger will erupt against you and remove you from the land.


6:16 You must not put the Lord your God to the test as you did at Massah. 6:17 Keep his commandments very carefully, as well as the stipulations and statutes he commanded you to observe. 6:18 Do whatever is proper and good before the Lord so that it may go well with you and that you may enter and occupy the good land that he promised your ancestors, 6:19 and that you may drive out all your enemies just as the Lord said.


6:20 When your children ask you later on, “What are the stipulations, statutes, and ordinances that the Lord our God commanded you?” 6:21 you must say to them, “We were Pharaoh’s slaves in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt in a powerful way. 6:22 And he brought signs and great, devastating wonders on Egypt, on Pharaoh, and on his whole family before our very eyes. 6:23 He delivered us from there so that he could give us the land he had promised our ancestors. 6:24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these statutes and to revere him so that it may always go well for us and he may preserve us, as he has to this day. 6:25 We will be innocent if we carefully keep all these commandments before the Lord our God, just as he demands.”

The correct meaning of Deut 6:4 has nothing to do with analyzing the inner being of God. Trinitarian theology or unity within the godhead are the farthest things from Moses mind. Moses is doing all he can to just get the people to obey God and serve Him only. The dangers of going into Canaan and settling/conquering the lands of other peoples were going to be theological as well as physical. The Canaanites had their own gods of their own lands and one of the many hazards of living in the area was going to be the temptation to worship these other tribal/national deities and to forget about the God who rescued them from Egypt and entered into a covenant relationship with them. Moses had been leading the people long enough and knew the tendency of the people was to grumble against God, question God, and forget God. Heck, Moses had no sooner gone up Sinai than the people made a golden calf to worship. They must remeber God, serve Him, trust Him, and obey Him, and nothing else:

Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, He is One!
You must love the LORD your God with all your mind, soul and strengeth.


Moses picks keeps on trucking with this theme through Deuteronomy 11 that Israel should worship, follow, trust and obey God alone. Jesus even repeats Deut 6:5 as the greatest commandment.

Deut 6:4 doesn't have anything to do with Trinitarianism, nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of other deities, and northing to do with a united godhead. It has everything to do with covenant love and faithfulness on the part of Israel to God because God lives up to His end of the covenant.

[Yekcidmij]

Originally Posted by livy111us

I said " you are gods, all of you sons of the most high.’ let Eunomius hear this, let Arius, who say that the son of God is son in the same way we are. That we are gods is not so by nature, but by grace. "but to as many as receive Him he gave power to becoming sons of God" I made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. We are called gods and sons!...(Christ said) "all of you sons of the Most High," it is not possible to be the son of the Most High, unless He Himself is the Most High. I said that all of you would be exalted as I am exalted.

(Jerome (340 A.D.-420 A.D.) the homilies of Saint Jerome pg. 106-107)
.

Here is why I would like the context of this quote from Jerome (and I should get a cookie for digging up this obscure quote; it took a few days):


St. Jerome Letter XXII. To Eustochium:

4. So long as we are held down by this frail body, so long as we have our treasure in earthen vessels; so long as the flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, there can be no sure victory. “Our adversary the devil goeth about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.” “Thou makest darkness,” David says, “and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth. The young lions roar after their prey and seek their meat from God.” The devil looks not for unbelievers, for those who are without, whose flesh the Assyrian king roasted in the furnace. It is the church of Christ that he “makes haste to spoil.” According to Habakkuk, “His food is of the choicest.” A Job is the victim of his machinations, and after devouring Judas he seeks power to sift the [other] apostles. The Saviour came not to send peace upon the earth but a sword.Lucifer fell, Lucifer who used to rise at dawn; and he who was bred up in a paradise of delight had the well-earned sentence passed upon him, “Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord.” For he had said in his heart, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God,” and “I will be like the Most High.” Wherefore God says every day to the angels, as they descend the ladder that Jacob saw in his dream, “I have said ye are Gods and all of you are children of the Most High. But ye shall die like men and fall like one of the princes.” The devil fell first, and since “God standeth in the congregation of the Gods and judgeth among the Gods,”the apostle writes to those who are ceasing to be Gods—“Whereas there is among you envying and strife, are ye not carnal and walk as men?”

In that quote Jerome, to my actual surprise, understands Psalm 82 as I do. He thinks Psalm 82 is refering to gods (or angels) who have fallen.

I like finding that I agree with other people and am not out on a limb of my own (though if it necessarily comes down to it, I'll go sit out there by myself). Now, instead of me being sad and thinking I was at odds with St. Jerome, it makes me wonder about that other quote and whether or not it's in the appropriate context.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Yekcidmij

I realize what "one" means. Clearly in the context of Deuteronomy it is talking about devotion and worship of one, unique God. It has nothing to do with analyzing the inner being of God. It has nothing to do with believing or denying that other deities exist or don't exist. It has nothing to do with Trinitarian theology and nothing to do with unity within a Godhead. Those are not the purposes of the author. If you understand Deuteronomy 6:4 as refering to devotion and worship of this rather unique God, then it flows right along with the surrounding context.

Deuteronomy 4:15 is where it starts and it goes through chapter 11-ish. I won't post all of it (it's entirely too much) but I will highlight some things surrounding the passage in question, all of it should be read though:




In chapter 4 Moses is reminding people of what God had done for them, and he is imploring them to obey and worship God and God alone. Don't worship the stars like your neighbors. What other god has dared invade a land other than his own? What other god speaks out of a fire? Remember the covenant he made with us! Remember Egypt! Follow God and God alone. Don't go after the gods of the land we are about to go into. That's what Moses is trying to tell the people.

Moses continues this in chapter 5:




Moses is imploring the people to covenant obedience. They hold up their end of the covenant because God has been gracious enough, not only to enter into a covenant with them, but He has held up to His end of the deal. "Listen Israel" (Shema Yisrael!), "remember what God did for you".

And the immediate context of Deut 6:4:




The correct meaning of Deut 6:4 has nothing to do with analyzing the inner being of God. Trinitarian theology or unity within the godhead are the farthest things from Moses mind. Moses is doing all he can to just get the people to obey God and serve Him only. The dangers of going into Canaan and settling/conquering the lands of other peoples were going to be theological as well as physical. The Canaanites had their own gods of their own lands and one of the many hazards of living in the area was going to be the temptation to worship these other tribal/national deities and to forget about the God who rescued them from Egypt and entered into a covenant relationship with them. Moses had been leading the people long enough and knew the tendency of the people was to grumble against God, question God, and forget God. Heck, Moses had no sooner gone up Sinai than the people made a golden calf to worship. They must remeber God, serve Him, trust Him, and obey Him, and nothing else:

Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, He is One!
You must love the LORD your God with all your mind, soul and strengeth.


Moses picks keeps on trucking with this theme through Deuteronomy 11 that Israel should worship, follow, trust and obey God alone. Jesus even repeats Deut 6:5 as the greatest commandment.

Deut 6:4 doesn't have anything to do with Trinitarianism, nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of other deities, and northing to do with a united godhead. It has everything to do with covenant love and faithfulness on the part of Israel to God because God lives up to His end of the covenant.

I am not sure if you really understand - but you appear close. The following quote sums up the accepting and worship of "ehad" or one G-d.

The uniqueness is in the entire structure of the Kingdom and all apointed and lawful representivies within that structure. Rejecting even the lowest citizen of such a Kingdom was considered a rejection of the very King. The oneness is in reference to everything associated or under the direction of that G-d.

Left out of this discussion is the concept of covenant - that creates and opens up a vast array of understanding of man's association to G-d and his kingdom or domain (which includes his appointed servants). I would, however, point out that under ancient law to refuse a vassal or servant of the king was an act of treason to which one was blinded or made deaf. Thus the saying "eyes that see" and "ears that hear" were statements of loyalty.

The Traveler

[Yekcidmij]

Originally Posted by Traveler

I am not sure if you really understand - but you appear close. The following quote sums up the accepting and worship of "ehad" or one G-d.

Well, I stand by what I said. Deuteronomy makes it rather clear that the covenant relationship was between YHWH and Israel and that Israel was to devote herself to YHWH alone.

The uniqueness is in the entire structure of the Kingdom and all apointed and lawful representivies within that structure. Rejecting even the lowest citizen of such a Kingdom was considered a rejection of the very King. The oneness is in reference to everything associated or under the direction of that G-d.

"Good" Angels, who would presumabley be a part of God's Kingdom, were not to be worshiped, neither were dead spirits (Deut 18:9-14). Israel was not to go and worship and deovote herself to anyone but YHWH, not Moses, not Aaron, not Joshua, not any other Israelite, not even the other "hosts of heaven" (Deut 4:19), but YHWH. If you are a member of God's Kingdom, I still cannot worship you and worshiping you is not the same as worshiping God. The uniqueness in Deuteronomy is about YHWH Himself. He is unlike any other god.

Now, if I were to reject the Word of YHWH, that would be a different can of worms to open. Rejecting YHWH's Word, is the same as rejecting Him. So, for a silly oversimplified example, if I say to my buddy, "Jesus says He's the only way to the Father", and my buddy says, "no, I don't believe it", then my buddy has not rejected me, he's rejected God's Word.

[Yekcidmij]

Originally Posted by Traveler

I
Left out of this discussion is the concept of covenant

I included it in my comments. Covenant is central to Israelites relationship with God.

I would, however, point out that under ancient law to refuse a vassal or servant of the king was an act of treason to which one was blinded or made deaf. Thus the saying "eyes that see" and "ears that hear" were statements of loyalty.

Interesting thought. I had a slightly different take, where worshiping something other than God made that "other thing" a persons god and instead of reflecting God's image like we were meant to, that person reflects the image of their god. So in the case of Psalm 115, 135, the idol worshipers end up reflecting the image of their wood and stone idols.

115:4 Their idols are made of silver and gold –
they are man-made.
115:5 They have mouths, but cannot speak,
eyes, but cannot see,
115:6 ears, but cannot hear,
noses, but cannot smell,
115:7 hands, but cannot touch,
feet, but cannot walk.
They cannot even clear their throats.
115:8 Those who make them will end up like them,
as will everyone who trusts in them.


So rejecting God simply means you devote worship to something other than God (a statue, money, material things, etc..) and we reflect the image of what we worship. So when the OT says they "have eyes but cannot see, ears but cannot hear, mouths but cannot speak"...it's because those gods are worthless. Kind of like in Psalm 82 where God accuses the other gods of stumbling around in the dark and not knowing. "Those who trust them will end up like them".

That's been my take on it, though I do like your point.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Yekcidmij

Well, I stand by what I said. Deuteronomy makes it rather clear that the covenant relationship was between YHWH and Israel and that Israel was to devote herself to YHWH alone.




"Good" Angels, who would presumabley be a part of God's Kingdom, were not to be worshiped, neither were dead spirits (Deut 18:9-14). Israel was not to go and worship and deovote herself to anyone but YHWH, not Moses, not Aaron, not Joshua, not any other Israelite, not even the other "hosts of heaven" (Deut 4:19), but YHWH. If you are a member of God's Kingdom, I still cannot worship you and worshiping you is not the same as worshiping God. The uniqueness in Deuteronomy is about YHWH Himself. He is unlike any other god.

Now, if I were to reject the Word of YHWH, that would be a different can of worms to open. Rejecting YHWH's Word, is the same as rejecting Him. So, for a silly oversimplified example, if I say to my buddy, "Jesus says He's the only way to the Father", and my buddy says, "no, I don't believe it", then my buddy has not rejected me, he's rejected God's Word.

Let us consider in our discussion the worship of Baal. Baal was the part mortal son of El (The Father and King of Heaven and all other divine citizens). To worship Baal one went to the temple that was designed as a theater there the epoch of Baal was reenacted.

Baal was a good person and part g-d. He loved mankind and did many miracles for them. There is a human women whom he loves dearly called Annath. Baal learn of a plot by Mot (g-d of the underworld and departed spirits) and Yaman (g-d of the waters) to take over the world of men and to make mankind their slaves. Baal goes to his father El that gives him power over the weather – in particular thunder and lighting. With thunder bolts Baal can kill from a distance.

Baal takes his new powers from El and meets Mot and Yaman in battle but Mot and Yaman have learned in advance of Baal and bribe a close human friend of Baal that betrays Baal and allows Mot and Yaman to kill Baal. Once he is pronounced dead Mot and Yaman celebrate and prepare for the final battle to take place the next day to subject mankind. In the meantime mankind prepares for the final hopeless battle which they know they will lose.

Annath finds the body of Baal and watches over him through a dark and stormy night helping to nurse Baal back to life. At dawn Baal rises from the dead and becomes immortal and goes to assist mankind in the final battle with Mot and Yaman. He joins the battle is just the moment that the final efforts of mankind are about to be overcome. Baal defeats Mot and Yaman and sends them back to the sea and underworld forever. After the battle Baal returns to Annath and they celebrate victory.

The reason I brought this up is to point out the most notorious worship of a false g-d of the Old Testament amounted to little more than our modern enjoyment of a James Bond type of action movie. In Israel, many believed that such activities could be enjoyed in harmony with the worship of the G-d of Israel. Also note the similarity to the story of Jesus born of Mary. Action figures of Baal were sold anciently and just having one in your home (regardless of your interest in Baal) was considered wrong by the ancient prophets.

The point I want to make here is that any degree of not heading every word of a prophet anciently was considered worship of false g-ds and adherence to false prophets and teachers . The ancient covenant required that the appointed servant be accepted as the “mouth piece”, “arm” or “voice” of G-d.
The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Something to consider is that Israelite worship changed extremely from the 1st to 2nd Temple periods. The First Temple period authorized worship of God in high places (bamah) on altars. The Tabernacle was still used centuries after Moses created it, even though the Temple was the new center piece of Israelite worship. Each of these places used the ancient temple ritual that reenacted a ceremony, which included a tree of life, the divine council, the wife of God/Wisdom, the Angel of God's Presence/Messiah, etc.

These were lost in the 2nd Temple and Deuteronomist reforms. Yahweh's power and presence spread immensely, as he began to be viewed more and more as an international God that transcended boundaries. This is how Yahweh was able to be God of the Jews during the Diaspora in Babylon.


During Elijah's time, Elijah caused the death of the priests of Baal, but did nothing against the priests of Asherah, the spouse of both Baal and Yahweh (and previously, of El). Why? Perhaps because Asherah was still viewed as Yahweh's wife by loyal Israelites, and was not kicked out of the pantheon until the Deuteronomists combined Yahweh and El into one solitary monotheistic God of Israel.

[HiJolly]

Hey Ram,

You been reading Bill Dever, or is it Margaret Barker? Both are pretty interesting.


HiJolly