We can become gods?

[Yekcidmij]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

More on the Suffering Messiah/Son of Joseph comes from an article at Biblical Archaeological Review, which gives more info on "Gabriel's Revelation" which is the new DSS on stone.



The link above has the actual translation and a photo of the stone.

I found it interesting after first learning about Messiah b. Joseph that we find this in the gospel of John:

1:45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the law, and the prophets also wrote about – Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

And I wonder if John intended to highlight that Jesus of Nazareth was "son of Joseph" especially since just a few verses he identified him as messiah. And why would Philip be stating that Jesus of Nazareth was "son of Joseph"? Philip was from Bethesda, not Nazareth, so he had little connection with Jesus' father, Joseph.


I don't know though.

[rameumptom]

I've also pondered that. While saying, "Jesus, son of Joseph" would help narrow down who he was, the reality is Joseph and Jesus were two of the most popular names for men in Judea at that time.

It does give us an interesting tie.

I also think on Zechariah's treatment of the current and future priest Joshua and his accomplishments. Most do not realize that the names Joshua and Jesus are basically the same, from Yehoshua in Hebrew. It is very likely that we get a prophecy of Jesus from a priest in Zechariah's time, not unlike Joseph Smith's prophecy in 2 Nephi 3.

[Yekcidmij]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

I've also pondered that. While saying, "Jesus, son of Joseph" would help narrow down who he was, the reality is Joseph and Jesus were two of the most popular names for men in Judea at that time.

It does give us an interesting tie.

Yea, since Bethesda is north of the Sea of Galilee and Nazareth is SW of the Sea, I'm not sure why Philip would act as if he knew Joseph husband of Mary.

The title "son of Joseph" also only appears twice in the new testament. Here and in John 6:42, where it seems like it might be used as a bit of irony. After Jesus says he has "come down from heaven" the Jews in the area exclaim "isn't this the son of Joseph"? Kind of an ironic statement if John is aware of Messiah b. Joseph traditions. And since Jesus was commonly called "Jesus of Nazareth" and only in these 2 places do we find "son of Joseph", it may be that John is demonstrating a high degree of awareness of messianic concepts.

I also think on Zechariah's treatment of the current and future priest Joshua and his accomplishments. Most do not realize that the names Joshua and Jesus are basically the same, from Yehoshua in Hebrew. It is very likely that we get a prophecy of Jesus from a priest in Zechariah's time.

I see a connection between both Joshua and Zarubbabel, though nothing linguistically with Zarub.

[Old Tex]

Originally Posted by PassionForHisWord

Let me see if I understand the LDS beliefs on this topic correctly:

Human beings were born in heaven as the son or daughter of a god and goddess before they were born physically here on earth.

Being born into this life here on earth is something that we agreed to in heaven. This life serves as a test and a means of obtaining exaltation one day to godhood.

One achieves exaltation by living a life of obedience to Mormon teaching and practices. Those exalted to godhood will inhabit a planet and procreate spirit children.

A supporting quote from Brigham Young would be this: "the Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself...We are created to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven.” (Journal of Discourses, 3:93)


So, having that all being said (and if I'm wrong, please correct me), how does the Mormon Church interpret Isaiah 43:10?

Quote:
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing that makes it easier to understand is to remember who God is usually speaking to (or about) in the Old Testament. Here He is referring to the House of Israel with whom He has a covenant.

He is reminding them that according to the covenant that He has with them that He is their God and that their covenant is with Him and Him only. No other God exists as far as they are concerned.

This is a statement specifically directed at those with whom He has a covenant and is not meant to be a dialog concerning those eternal individuals who may dwell in the eternal realms, no matter how many there may be.

I find that many times non LDS folks can't see things like LDS do because they try to understand LDS while holding to their own understanding of their sources. One must be able to put their own view in "neutral" long enough to be able to see through LDS understanding and then it will become appearent to them.

I hope this comes out in a readable format..............I'm not familiar with posting on this site.

[mnn727]

Many others shared the same belief, Here are some old quotes from the "Early Church Faters" followed by some quotes from some prominant modern Protestant Ministers.

St. Irenaeus in the 2nd century about 140 years after the crucifixion:
"If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods."(1)

Also in the second century, Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." (2)

In the 2nd century also , Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men "were made like God, free from suffering and death," and that they are thus "deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest." (3)

In the 4th century Saint Athanasius (a tireless foe of heresy & the man for whom the Athanasian creed is named) also stated: "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods...Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." (4)

Athanasius also stated,
"He became man that we might be made divine." (5)

And finally, Saint Augustine himself states: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become sons of God' (John 1:12) If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." (6)


References:

(1) Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk 5, pref.
(2) Clement of Alexandra, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1.
(3) Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124
(4) Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.34
(5) Athanasius, De Inc., 54
(6) Augustine, One the Psalms, 50.2


Paul Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network says, "I am a little god. I have His name. I am one with Him. I'm in a covenant relation. I am a little god. Critics be gone." (7)

Robert Tilton says, "Man is a God kind of creature. Originally you were designed to be as a god in this world. Man was designed or created by God to be the god of this world. (8)

Kenneth Copeland says, "You don't have a god in you. You are one!" Additionally, he writes, "that man had total authority to rule as a god over every living creature on earth." (9)

C.S. Lewis, a great theologian says, "It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship." (10)

Lewis also states: "The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God."

References:
(7) Paul Crouch, "Praise the Lord." TBN 7 July 1986.
(8) Robert Tilton, "God's Laws of Success (Dallas: Word of Faith, 1983) pp. 170-71.
(9) Kenneth Copeland, "The Force of Love: (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland, n.d.), tape BCC-56.

[abqfriend]

Great quotes by some early Catholic leaders. Just because you may find a quote by an early or late Church leader of the Catholic Church-does not mean they are the doctrine of the Catholic Church as defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
If you wish current understanding of the Catholic Church-go to the source.
English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church with Search Utility

Good quotes-but recognize the limits of them taken out of context of the entire writings of the given Church leader.
-Carol

Originally Posted by mnn727

Many others shared the same belief, Here are some old quotes from the "Early Church Faters" followed by some quotes from some prominant modern Protestant Ministers.

[BenRaines]

Quoting Robert Tilton? Now that is laughable. Have you seen him? Have you read about him? As far as I am concerned his is right up there with Jim Baker and Tammi Faye if not worse.

Ben Raines

[abqfriend]

I do not think that
Irenaeus,Clement of Alexandra, Justin Martyr,Athanasius or Augustine
would like to be linked with Tilton, Copeland or Croch.

CS Lewis was a great writer -and did not claim to be a theologian or religious leader.
His books "Mere Christianity" and "The Problem with Pain" are my favorites.

Originally Posted by BenRaines

Quoting Robert Tilton? Now that is laughable. Have you seen him? Have you read about him? As far as I am concerned his is right up there with Jim Baker and Tammi Faye if not worse.

Ben Raines

[Cameron]

I don't blame people for freaking out when they hear some of our LDS beliefs such as this one. The reason they do so is because they've never heard it before. However, I think one reason this makes people uneasy is because when they think 'GOD,' they think superman and unlimited power. It's not really about that. It's about our Dad who wants us to grow and learn and become like Him, because by learning to obey His eternal laws we will receive what the scriptures call a 'fulness of joy.'

[Interested]

Hm.... I hear that Mormons do not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine. If they do not, then why identify themselves as Christian even if they share the same Judaic Christian doctrines otherwise?

I mention this in this thread because it ties in with the Godhead I mentioned to a Mormon friend of mine. Why? Yes... I can understand that Mormons accept Jesus, but I do not understand if they accept Jesus in the same fashion as Evangelicals.