We can become gods?

[PassionForHisWord]

Let me see if I understand the LDS beliefs on this topic correctly:

Human beings were born in heaven as the son or daughter of a god and goddess before they were born physically here on earth.

Being born into this life here on earth is something that we agreed to in heaven. This life serves as a test and a means of obtaining exaltation one day to godhood.

One achieves exaltation by living a life of obedience to Mormon teaching and practices. Those exalted to godhood will inhabit a planet and procreate spirit children.

A supporting quote from Brigham Young would be this: "the Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself...We are created to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven.” (Journal of Discourses, 3:93)


So, having that all being said (and if I'm wrong, please correct me), how does the Mormon Church interpret Isaiah 43:10?

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

[pam]

I'm doing some research on this. But in part of Isaiah chapter 43, the people were being chastized for worshipping idols. They were being asked to repent and return to the Lord. Part of what was being explained was the Lord reminding the people that HE is the one God...not the idols they were worshipping.

[skalenfehl]

Just really quick compare to Psalms 82:6 and John 10: 34-35

I touched upon this in another thread, which you might have read:

one God

[PassionForHisWord]

I'm doing some research on this. But in part of Isaiah chapter 43, the people were being chastized for worshipping idols. They were being asked to repent and return to the Lord. Part of what was being explained was the Lord reminding the people that HE is the one God...not the idols they were worshipping.

Yes, that's part of the context. But the other half is God's statement: There has been no God before Him, and niether will there be after Him.

Let's say I got in a line to buy lunch for myself. If I was the only one in line, and also somehow the only customer the restaurant had all day, that would make me both the first customer and the last customer for that day, right?

Well, rather than using a time segment of a day, God declares He is the first and the last for all eternity (Isaiah 44:6). The first and the last what? The first and the last God. He even adds (in that verse reference I just put) that besides Him there is no other God. He has been the first for the entire infinite duration that He has been in existence, and because He is the only God, He will also be the last for the entire infinite duration that He will continue to exist in.

It may sound a little silly, but if we go back to my analogy, this would be the equivalent of me saying "I am the first and the last customer today, and besides me there is no other customer today."

[PassionForHisWord]

Originally Posted by skalenfehl

Just really quick compare to Psalms 82:6 and John 10: 34-35

I touched upon this in another thread, which you might have read:

one God

"The context of this passage reveals that Christ had just pronounces Himself one with the Father saying, "I and My Father are one" (10:30). The Jews wanted to stone Him because they thought Christ was blaspheming since He was making Himself out to be equal with God (vv. 31-33).
Jesus responded by quoting Psalm 82:6 which says, "I said, you are gods." This psalm addresses judges who are judging unjustly [Psalm 82:2]. The title of "gods" is not addressed to everyone, but only to these judges about whom Jesus said are those to "whom the word of God came" (v. 35). Jesus was showing that if the OT Scriptures could give some divine status to divinely appointed judges, why should they find it incredible that He should call Himself the Son of God? Thus, Jesus was giving a defense for His own deity, not for the deification of man." (Geisler/Howe 417 The Big Book of Bible Difficulties)

That's the best response I can come up with.

[skalenfehl]

I look at it this way. There's a line of people and they're all trying to imagine what the lunch lady looks like or maybe there are more than one. Or maybe it's not a lunch lady but some other kind of lunch server, etc. They come up with descriptions, using their imagination to create images in anticipation of what the lunch lady has to offer them. From around the corner, one or maybe a few, who have seen the lunch lady have declared that there is only one lunch lady and try to send the message back to those who have not yet seen her. But as far as the people in that line are concerned, the lunch lady has declared that she is the only one who has the food and will serve them lunch.

[bytor2112]

Let me see if I understand the LDS beliefs on this topic correctly:

The things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit. Revelations, visions and restored doctrines are all part of the Restored Church of Christ and additional light regarding the eternal nature of God and his relationship with his children is one of the great blessings of that restored truth.

Human beings were born in heaven as the son or daughter of a god and goddess before they were born physically here on earth.

We....that is you and I and everyone of us that have been born on this fallen sphere are literally sons and daughters of a loving Father in Heaven. And a Heavenly Mother? " man is the offspring of celestial parentage.......and all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother and are literally the sons and daughters of deity." - Joseph F. Smith.....Prophet.

Being born into this life here on earth is something that we agreed to in heaven. This life serves as a test and a means of obtaining exaltation one day to godhood.

Yes. Our time here in mortality is set apart as a time of probation and of testing. It is our opportunity to learn and gain experience and perfect our faith and to attain the attributes of Christ....which are the attributes of the Father. Exaltation.........salvation is available to everyone who has ever lived or will ever live. Everyone will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ....repent and return to the Father. Will everyone accept?

One achieves exaltation by living a life of obedience to Mormon teaching and practices. Those exalted to godhood will inhabit a planet and procreate spirit children.

Eternal life is available to all mankind. Everyone who has ever lived or will ever live will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel.....whether in this life or in the spirit world. All mankind must come to salvation in exactly the same way. Faith in Jesus Christ, repentance , baptism by proper Priesthood Authority, receipt of the gift of the Holy Ghost...again by those having authority, as well as entering into the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage in the House of the Lord and enduring to the end.....endeavoring to live a Christ like life...repenting along the way is what is required to recieve Eternal life...exaltation.

A supporting quote from Brigham Young would be this: "the Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself...We are created to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven.” (Journal of Discourses, 3:93)

Yes....."Godhood is to have the character, possess the attributes and enjoy the perfections which the Father has. It is to do what he does, have the powers resident in him and live as he lives...having eternal increase....it is to become joint heirs with Christ....inheriting with him all that the Father hath."

So, having that all being said (and if I'm wrong, please correct me), how does the Mormon Church interpret Isaiah 43:10?

Further light and knowledge and clarification of biblical scripture.........revelation and additional and open canon. My interpretation....he is saying that he is our God and Savior and that we have no other..as in verse 11. And just for clarification........it is the Church of Jesus Christ... not the Mormon Church.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

May I ask you a question?

Why differentiate between God and god? Why not say, "There are no gods formed after me rather than Gods?"

[Yekcidmij]

Originally Posted by PassionForHisWord

"The context of this passage reveals that Christ had just pronounces Himself one with the Father saying, "I and My Father are one" (10:30). The Jews wanted to stone Him because they thought Christ was blaspheming since He was making Himself out to be equal with God (vv. 31-33).
Jesus responded by quoting Psalm 82:6 which says, "I said, you are gods." This psalm addresses judges who are judging unjustly [Psalm 82:2]. The title of "gods" is not addressed to everyone, but only to these judges about whom Jesus said are those to "whom the word of God came" (v. 35). Jesus was showing that if the OT Scriptures could give some divine status to divinely appointed judges, why should they find it incredible that He should call Himself the Son of God? Thus, Jesus was giving a defense for His own deity, not for the deification of man." (Geisler/Howe 417 The Big Book of Bible Difficulties)

That's the best response I can come up with.

This Psalm has fascinated me mainly because of a constant reference to it from people outside traditional orthodoxy and Judaism. I respectfully, and humbly (since they are much smarter than me), disagree with Geisler and Howe on this one (I'm protestant, btw).

Here's my take on Psalm 82.

I think it's used as a polemic tactic against the gods of the nations. The Psalm does not address explicitly whether or not those gods are real or fake idols. It does seem to assume they are real in some sense, otherwise who is it God is judging? The Psalm carries with it a strong Canaanite theme to it:

82:1 Elohim stands in the assembly of El;
in the midst of the elohim he renders judgment.

The "assembly of El" is a phrase only used here in the entire bible. There is another possible reference to it in Isaiah 14 where it says, "stars of El". I see only 2 real possibilities here. (1) vs. 1 is a polemic tactic against the Canaanite high god El. Israel's God stands in El's assembly and just begins to run the show thereby showing the impotence of El to do anything about it. (2) El is refering Israel's God Himself and the one taking a stand in His assembly is a plenipotentiary agent.

I think (2) is more likely since at the end of the Psalm the standing elohim that has been rendering judgment calls on Elohim to stand and render judgment. The picture is that the El in vs. 1 is seated as judge and at the end of the Psalm the Elohim that has been rendering judgment on the gods of the nations calls on the seated One to stand and execute judgment on the nations themselves.

The other "elohim" (gods) mentioned in the passage are the gods of the nations. But they are not god in the same sense as either El that is seated or the Elohim that is standing. They are in fact incapable of executing justice properly as they make unjust decisions according to vs. 2. These gods don't even "know or understand" and they stumble around in darkness. In fact, they will die "like men" and fall like any other ruler. There is a distinction drawn between the elohim and men. The elohim here are not men. But they are not elohim in the same sense as the standing one or the seated one are because they are being judged by these other 2 and can't do anything about it.

The standing Elohim would be a plenipotentiary of the seated El since it seems that the execution of the verdict depends solely on the seated El.


Now, since I am Christian, I must also be able to cohere this understanding with the way Jesus is using it in John 10 or I must find another way to explain it.

10:31 The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone him to death. 10:32 Jesus said to them,“I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?” 10:33 The Jewish leaders replied, “We are not going to stone you for a good deed but for blasphemy because you, a man, are claiming to be God.” 10:34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 10:35 If those people to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ (and the scripture cannot be broken), 10:36 do you say about the one whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 10:37 If I do not perform the deeds of my Father, do not believe me. 10:38 But if I do them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may come to know and understand that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.” 10:39 Then they attempted again to seize him, but he escaped their clutches.

In the conext of the passage, Jesus is defending His unique relationship to the Father. And He does this by appealing to Psalm 82.

The first thing to note is that He says "Is it not written in your law". This is interesting because this is a Psalm and is not located in the Torah. What is Jesus talking about? Does Jesus not understand what the Torah is? Of course he understands, and I think this shows a high degree of understanding of Torah. I think He is talking about the "Oral Torah" which many Jews adhered to, and Jews today adhere to. This was a Pharisee belief that God had delivered a written Torah and an oral Torah to Moses on Sinai. Lucky for us, the Rabbi's eventually wrote down the oral Torah. So, what does the Oral Torah say about Psalm 82?

Mishnah Avot:

7. Rabbi Chalafta ben Dosa of Kefar Chanania used to say: If ten men sit together and occupy themselves with the Torah, the Divine Presence rests among them as it is written (Psalm 82:1) "God has taken his place in the divine council." And from where do we learn that this applies even to five? Because it is written (Amos 9:6) "And founds his vault upon the earth." And how do we learn that this applies even to three? Because it is written (Psalm 82:1) "In the midst of the gods he holds judgment." And from where can it be shown that the same applies even to two? Because it is written (Malachi 3:16)"Then those who revered the Lord spoke with one another. The Lord took note and listened." And from where even of one? Because it is written (Exodus 20:24) "In every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you

And also in the Targum, an interesting version of Psalm 82 shows up:

1. A hymn composed by Asaph. God, his presence abides in the assembly of the righteous who are strong in Torah; he will give judgment in the midst of the righteous judges.

5. They do not know how to do good, and they do not understand the Torah, they walk in darkness; because of this, the pillars of the earth’s foundations shake.

This is the mindset Jesus is addressing. In Hebrew, "elohim" doesn't always refer to deity, and that reading was how the Jewish people were reading the Psalm ("rulers" or "judges"). The people he was addressing thought that Psalm 82 was talking about rulers/judges of Israel who God gave the Torah to on Sinai. In John 10, Jesus is using this and turning it in on them and this is evident in the passage:

10:35 If those people to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ (and the scripture cannot be broken),

and he was doing this while defending His unique relationship to the Father. He is not affirming that they are indeed gods. He is using the Psalm with the same intent that the original author did - polemic. If they had applied the entire Psalm to themselves they would have seen that the "gods" there do not "know or understand", a phrase Jesus picks on in John 10 also:

10:38b so that you may come to know and understand that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.”

and they would have been aware that these gods in the Psalm are killed. Not really someone you want to identify with huh? I think Jesus is also identifying Himself with the elohim that is standing in Psalm 82 and rendering judgment since the context is Jesus defending His unique relationship with the Father and since Jesus says, "I said you are gods". I think Jesus is identifying Himself as the One that is rendering judgment. In Psalm 82 the judgment is rendered on the gods of the nations. In John 10 the judgment is rendered on the Jewish leaders, who identify themselves as the "gods" in the Psalm.

Jesus is not affirming they are gods; that grossly takes the passage out of context. He's, if anything, doing the opposite by rendering judgment on them, but I think affirming or denying their deity is not involved in the passage or a concern of the passage at all, especially since Jews didn't consider themselves to be divine.

He is not affirming that their understanding of Psalm 82, "rulers" or "judges" of the Torah, is correct either since there is a remark to "your law" that seems to draw a distinction between what Jesus was affirming and what they affirmed (kind of like, "your law, not mine").

The original context of Psalm 82 is judgment on the gods of the nations. If anything, the the oral law has misapplied that Psalm and Jesus exploits the opprotunity to defend His unique relationship to the Father and their subordination to Him. Just as Psalm 82 was a polemic against the gods of the nations, Jesus uses Psalm 82 as a polemic against those standing there due to their understanding of Psalm 82.

Hope that helps.

[PassionForHisWord]

Originally Posted by YoungMormonRoyalist

May I ask you a question?

Why differentiate between God and god? Why not say, "There are no gods formed after me rather than Gods?"

Well, when the Bible says "gods", with the lower case "g", it's referring to idols, which are in reality demons posing to be "gods".

They sacrificed unto demons who are not God; To gods whom they knew not, To new ones, who came newly up, Whom your fathers revered not. - Deuteronomy 32:17

The Old Testament Hebrew original languages usually uses the word "elohei" for them rather than "el, ela, or elohim".

So if you're saying "Gods" with an upper case "G", you're suggesting there is more than one all-powerful, transcendent, and sovereign Being.