The Trinity Questions – For Traditional Christians

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

I can feel the hug of my Heavenly Father more powerfully than that of my earthly one, despite his non-corporeal nature. Surely there are some testimonies that are more sure than anything the physical realm can produce. No?

How do you know it is a hug and not something else and how do you know that it is G-d and not some other very powerful being capable of replicating (falsifying - counterfeiting) some of G-d power? The "more sure than" statement has me interested.

The Traveler

[chriscb]

I like how Mike Warnke explained the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. He compared it to homemade apple pie. Mmmmmm. Now, he wasn't talking about that frozen store bought stuff. He was talking about the kind Grandmother would make. You cut three equal pieces but you don't take it out of the pie pan. On the outside, we see 3 divisions but on the inside (under the crust) it's all one apple filling. So, I suppose the same can be said of God. On the outside we see 3 divisions (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) but on the inside is one divine essence.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Traveler

How do you know it is a hug and not something else and how do you know that it is G-d and not some other very powerful being capable of replicating (falsifying - counterfeiting) some of G-d power? The "more sure than" statement has me interested.

The Traveler

Feelings alone can lead to heresy. Scripture along to the worst Phariseeism. When Scripture and Spirit align, then I know that the battle I fight is not against flesh and blood, but against spirits and principalities. And yet, greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Feelings alone can lead to heresy. Scripture along to the worst Phariseeism. When Scripture and Spirit align, then I know that the battle I fight is not against flesh and blood, but against spirits and principalities. And yet, greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.

Thank you for your response. From my own background - I grew up in a family that did not hug. To be honest hugging makes me uncomfortable with the one exception of my wife. Touching is, without any question in my mind, a physical thing, a carnal thing and a sensual thing. I understand very well the difference between spiritual things and physical carnal sensual things.

I am confused in that you attempt to explain things that are spiritual with reference to things that are physical then imply that you are attempting to overcome (do battle with) something that is not physical but spiritual. Perhaps if I can ask again – if you are involved in “a battle” which is not flesh and blood – How do you distinguish light from darkness (which is a physical not spiritual sense)?

You seem to imply that if something in the flesh corresponds with scripture then it must be of G-d. I find this most interesting because my method is the exact reverse. It is only when that which is physical (including scripture) is validated by that which is divinely spiritual that I think it correct and all truth (including scientific) I believe to be validated in the end in this manner.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by chriscb

I like how Mike Warnke explained the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. He compared it to homemade apple pie. Mmmmmm. Now, he wasn't talking about that frozen store bought stuff. He was talking about the kind Grandmother would make. You cut three equal pieces but you don't take it out of the pie pan. On the outside, we see 3 divisions but on the inside (under the crust) it's all one apple filling. So, I suppose the same can be said of God. On the outside we see 3 divisions (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) but on the inside is one divine essence.

The problem with the above explanation is that it ignores some very important ancient notions of G-d. The Hebrew word for one G-d is ehad. This word brings into context wholeness. Meaning that G-d is whole and complete without anything necessary that is or can be missing. In math we define this notion as necessary and sufficient. If there are parts or ways to differentiate G-d outside of the wholeness one does not understand G-d in that they have an “impure” or incomplete understanding. To me the Trinity is so inwardly contradictory that I have concluded that such thinking “compartmentalizes” the G-dhead persons outside of understanding of what makes G-d or man whole.

When I have pointed out the inward contradictions of the Trinity I am told by Trinitarians that G-d cannot be understood by man and that is what makes G-d so great a G-d. I understand this thinking to reference someone that is not born of G-d and therefore is not one with him therefore impossible to have a whole or complete understanding or concept of G-d that enlightens and makes man whole – not confused.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, often we say the same things, but from different approaches. You say that your spirit confirms what is flesh and blood. What I actually said was that both aspects must confirm one another. You prioritize the spiritual confirmation, whereas I want both spiritual and physical. Or, to be specific, Bible and that still small voice.

You specifically asked me how I know that the spiritual voice I hear is the voice of God, or Christ. I responded that it would comport with the Bible. You respond by saying you want your Bible to conform to the spiritual voice. It should be both/and not either/or, imho.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Traveler, often we say the same things, but from different approaches. You say that your spirit confirms what is flesh and blood. What I actually said was that both aspects must confirm one another. You prioritize the spiritual confirmation, whereas I want both spiritual and physical. Or, to be specific, Bible and that still small voice.

You specifically asked me how I know that the spiritual voice I hear is the voice of God, or Christ. I responded that it would comport with the Bible. You respond by saying you want your Bible to conform to the spiritual voice. It should be both/and not either/or, imho.

PC: I always enjoy our conversations and believe that I understand myself as well as you through our conversations. I would love to spend a day or two conversing with you. I very much enjoy learning of your perspective. As a scientist the physical universe has always been a curiosity of mine. At the same time I have discovered that the spiritual universe is just as vast and complex. The two are like mirrors of each other.

Many years ago while studying quantum mechanics I developed a theory that all things spiritual exist and are just as real as all things physical. All things physical exist within the dimensions that we can experience within our physical self. Likewise all things spiritual exist in a separate dimension where the laws of physics are in essence different. The two (spiritual and physical) exist not as parallel realities but as intersecting realities.

I used some of the same equations that Einstein used to derive E=MC(squared) and discovered that there is an alternate method to calculate forces that interact. This is done not at the center of the objects but in the intersecting volumes (force fields) that surround each object. By using a particle accelerator there is a delta between attractions or repulsions of the field volumes verses the center of the object of high speed particles. The delta demonstrates the existence of an additional unseen dimension.

I did not mean to flood you with this stuff. Only to point out my reason for understanding the connection between that which is spiritual (in a intersecting dimension) and that which is physical and can be experience within the dimensions of time and space which we can record within the same dimensions of time and space.

Now that I have explained all this – it is my belief that a spiritual hug does not exist in the same manner in which a physical hug exist. That if G-d was to hug that it would take place in our physical dimensional space that we experience in the same manner that we would have a hug from anyone else. But the influences and impressions of that which is spirit can only be realized by that which is spiritual that is within us. And that which is spiritual exist without temporal dimension. Which now leaves us with only one possibility. That our spiritual self not being a temporal dimension must therefore exist outside of time and therefore is not created as is that which is physical and temporal. If this spiritual dimension did not exist within us then there is nothing of G-d (of of the spirit) we could experience or sense in any way possible within the dimensions that we exist.

And so it is that I have tried to make sense of what you are trying to tell me – but I am not sure if I understand what it is that you have experienced to be real or imagined. That is why I ask the questions. I will stop here because I have discovered that all that is known must be known by our spirit otherwise it is not known but imagined.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, I believe I understand you. It's an interesting argument--and one that happens to support the LDS doctrine of premortal eternal existence. I just wonder if my understanding of the human spirit having a finite beginning, but an eternity to look forward to could not also fit into your explanation. After all, despite our beginning, we have become eternal beings.

[AnthonyB]

PC,

Just curious...

Did God create time? (the time we experience)
Did God therefore exist before time?
If God currently exits in eternity, does he as postulated by Augustine, exist outside time?
If we enter eternity, will we exist outside time?
If something exists outside of time, how can you say that it only occurs after a specific time, when it is no longer bound/"related to" by that time?

What I am trying to get to say is that if we enter eternity, time as we know it ceases to have any effect on us. Eternity is not IMHO a continuation of this current time but stepping outside and beyond it.

[hankpac]

None of this has makes any effect on our eternal progression, nor our salvation. You can get as deep as you want., and explore the unponderable questions of mankind and time, but that only distracts us from the primary issue: striving for obedience to the commandments, and being as Christlike as possible.
You will know all the answers on the other side of the veil, and will marvel that you were ever so tied up in such triviality.