The Trinity Questions – For Traditional Christians

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Traveler, I believe I understand you. It's an interesting argument--and one that happens to support the LDS doctrine of premortal eternal existence. I just wonder if my understanding of the human spirit having a finite beginning, but an eternity to look forward to could not also fit into your explanation. After all, despite our beginning, we have become eternal beings.

PC: When I put this all together I did so with a bias of my background. It is something we all do as we put together our paradigm of understanding. The interesting thing had to do with the hard math applied to Fourier and Laplace transforms as the point of reference approaches the speed of light, time approaches zero or stops but does not go negative. In other words the temporal dimension (time) no longer exist. Also all points within the defined space (our universe) become boundary points. Think of a piece of paper representing a two dimensional plain. All of the points on that paper are boundary points with our 3 dimensional space which means all points on the plain can be accessed directly from our 3 dimensions and intersect our space. This demonstrates a possible way that G-d has access directly to everything in our physical universe.

The problem I had with time is that if we have a connection (spirit intersection) then the spiritual connection could not have a temporal part. This means that time (according to the math) does not exist. It also means that G-d can know the future as well as we can know the past.

I have gotten a little off point here. But the bottom line is – I do not know how, with the math and this paradigm, there can be a finite beginning to anything in the spiritual dimensional space. The interesting thing is that it all fits and can be explained by the same physics (math) by which we currently understand our physical universe. It also means that the randomness of quantum mechanics is not random at all but determined by “distortions” generated from the connections and intersections to the spiritual dimension.

Anyway I am not going to demand that this paradigm must be – but I have found that I can explain all I know from scripture and revelation concerning the possibility that G-d and spirit exist beyond the dimensions of our current experience. – Thanks for listening.

The Traveler

[AnthonyB]

I know many may find such speculation fruitless but for me it helped answer some spiritual questions that I think do have a very practical effect on the way one lives life.

I don't like several of the tenets of Calvinism but was drawn towards it because it seemed the only way to maintain the sovereignty of God. How can God be sovereign and yet allow free will. IMHO using foreknowledge just seemed to move the question but not answer it.

Placing God outside time, and having him therefore experiencing all our time simultaneously seems to be a really great way of maintaining both divine sovereignty and free will.

I'm aware that we can get trapped into counting the angels on a pin head. However I have also seen people who want to be so practical in their faith that they banish all theological thinking and live shallow lives without the slightest thought on their beliefs.

Any number of people I consider great followers of Jesus managed to do both. I see no harm in pondering on God and attempting to progress in my understanding of Him. I shall never fully understand until I pass through the veil/stand in the presence of God but I rejoice in the little my mind can comprehend.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

PC,

Just curious...

Did God create time? (the time we experience)
Did God therefore exist before time?
If God currently exits in eternity, does he as postulated by Augustine, exist outside time?
If we enter eternity, will we exist outside time?
If something exists outside of time, how can you say that it only occurs after a specific time, when it is no longer bound/"related to" by that time?

What I am trying to get to say is that if we enter eternity, time as we know it ceases to have any effect on us. Eternity is not IMHO a continuation of this current time but stepping outside and beyond it.

I understand your theory. Here's how I see it.

God lives in this: <--->

We live in this: .--->

If creation out of nothing is true, then I don't see how it can be otherwise.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by hankpac

None of this has makes any effect on our eternal progression, nor our salvation. You can get as deep as you want., and explore the unponderable questions of mankind and time, but that only distracts us from the primary issue: striving for obedience to the commandments, and being as Christlike as possible.
You will know all the answers on the other side of the veil, and will marvel that you were ever so tied up in such triviality.

Whether we are co-eternal with the Father, and whether he is our Maker and Fashioner, but not the one who originated our essence, may seem trivial. I consider it of the utmost importance. God's nature, our nature, and how they interrelate is core doctrine.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

I know many may find such speculation fruitless but for me it helped answer some spiritual questions that I think do have a very practical effect on the way one lives life.

I don't like several of the tenets of Calvinism but was drawn towards it because it seemed the only way to maintain the sovereignty of God. How can God be sovereign and yet allow free will. IMHO using foreknowledge just seemed to move the question but not answer it.

Placing God outside time, and having him therefore experiencing all our time simultaneously seems to be a really great way of maintaining both divine sovereignty and free will.

I'm aware that we can get trapped into counting the angels on a pin head. However I have also seen people who want to be so practical in their faith that they banish all theological thinking and live shallow lives without the slightest thought on their beliefs.

Any number of people I consider great followers of Jesus managed to do both. I see no harm in pondering on God and attempting to progress in my understanding of Him. I shall never fully understand until I pass through the veil/stand in the presence of God but I rejoice in the little my mind can comprehend.

There are some things I believe ought to be considered in discussions about G-d.

1. That science and religious thought do not have to ignore each other.
2. That what is true in science can be used to understand G-d and vice versa. We do not have to discard one kind of thinking to endorse the other.
3. That G-d is not unlike us – we are in his image and what G-d does is not impossible or even unreasonable for man. In fact we should use G-d as our “perfect” example.
4. Nothing is learned without seeking. Knowledge is a good worthwhile desirable thing that should be sought for. There is no such thing as a trivial truth – G-d incorporates, utilizes and endorses all truth. To not be interested in truth is to not really be interested in G-d. It does not matter if a truth is “necessary” for salvation or not but truth is necessary to be free. G-d is a G-d a truth and to mock and ignore or turn away from truth is to mock and ignore or turn away from G-d.
5. I am not trying to say my theory is 100% truth or right – only that it is possible. I am not even saying that it is the only possibility – but it is the best of all possibilities I know of. I am a practical type; I will use that which I understand fits the best until something better comes along.
6. The things of G-d are not fantasy, magic, foolishness or unknowable but precise and exact truth that is brilliantly intelligent and not unlike all other realities.

Thank you for joining the discussion.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Whether we are co-eternal with the Father, and whether he is our Maker and Fashioner, but not the one who originated our essence, may seem trivial. I consider it of the utmost importance. God's nature, our nature, and how they interrelate is core doctrine.

One thing about the eternal nature of man that I find interesting revolves around the old arguments of free will versed determinism. In my paradigm all things in the physical are determined by something that precedes it. I cannot think of how man could possibly have free will unless nothing precedes the essence of man. I like the LDS notion because it does away with the argument “Why should I change (repent) – G-d made me the way I am”. With the eternal possibility G-d is not responsible for the way anyone is. It allows us to understand that G-d gives us the latitude to be what we determine we are and becoming by evolving based on our will and ability to learn from our experience.

The Traveler

[AnthonyB]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

I understand your theory. Here's how I see it.

God lives in this: <--->

We live in this: .--->

If creation out of nothing is true, then I don't see how it can be otherwise.

PC,

I'd agree with your graphs as far as our time dimension goes.

Aren't you however making "time" eternal? Did God create all things except "time"?

I don't know how much physics you've studied but Einstein's relativity theories insist that time and space are inseperably linked. You cannot have time without having space, we live a four dimensional time-space interwoven universe.

If you insist on having time before the creation act then you must have space (and therefore matter). Which leaves you without realising it supporting the LDS eternal matter belief.

[Hemidakota]

Even eterntity has a time clock but not on a telestial level.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Even eterntity has a time clock but not on a telestial level.

If my understanding - and calculations are correct time is only a factor in the physical (sometimes called temporal) universe. Note that temporal does not mean physical but associated with time. Often we speak of that which is "not" spiritual as being temporal.

The Traveler

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Even eterntity has a time clock but not on a telestial level.

and it's batteries never go dead or need to be recharged.