The Trinity Questions – For Traditional Christians

[AnthonyB]

The point is that God cannot be found merely within our 4 dimensional time-space, cause if he needed that to exist then he couldn't exist before he created the universe we live in.

It would be sensible that eternity had a separate time dimension. That is if string theory proves to be true there is up to 7 dimension not used currently within our universe.

For those interested in the idea about other dimensions I'd recommend, "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene, although if your one of the many who bought Hawkins "A Brief History of Time" and failed to complete it, be warned Greene's book is probably a step up in complexity (IMHO).

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, my concern with your relieving God of creating the essence of humanity is that He becomes something other than my Origin. My Maker, perhaps...but, seemingly something less. On the other hand, we become something more if there is an aspect of us is eternal. We increase, and He decreases. Rather different from the Apostle John's declaration, "I must decrease that He might increase."

Anthony, my understanding is that time begins with creation. It, like us, was created out of nothing.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Traveler, my concern with your relieving God of creating the essence of humanity is that He becomes something other than my Origin. My Maker, perhaps...but, seemingly something less. On the other hand, we become something more if there is an aspect of us is eternal. We increase, and He decreases. Rather different from the Apostle John's declaration, "I must decrease that He might increase."

Anthony, my understanding is that time begins with creation. It, like us, was created out of nothing.

Thank you for your response. I have never been able to investigate with someone that holds the ideas of creation you hold. Please do not take anything personal but I just do not understand how someone could come to such a conclusion as that G-d created all things from nothing. I will explain two important principles that I believe come into direct conflict with this thinking.

The First has to do with the freedom and will of man and the rewards or punishments G-d gives to man. I have already expressed this idea before and I cannot figure out how you address this conflict. The concept is that G-d created everything the way it is; there was no other input other than G-d’s. Therefore if someone rejects G-d and his goodness it can only be because they (or it) were created such to do exactly that. I see no way around this principle. G-d is therefore to blame for all evil – G-d should be the first of anyone cast into hell because he is the genius the created every sinner, demon and child of hell to do exactly what they do. Because G-d knows the future he knows exactly what he does so if his creation would desire evil over goodness it could only because he created his creation to be that. He could have (and should have) spared all the suffering of innocence. Since he started with “nothing” he had total and complete control over all outcomes of everything and if there is true justice then G-d is the only one that could be responsible for anything. I do not know how there can be justice if G-d is a creator from nothing and all things, which are nothing more or less than as G-d created them. Any blame to anyone or anything other than G-d could not be just. Therefore such a G-d could not have true mercy either. One could rightly argue that G-d is not merciful or just if he is happy and willing to punish anyone else for what he alone “created”.

The Second great conflict has to do with ownership. I will explain how I believe G-d is the only rightful owner of all that exist in our physical universe and no one else has claim to anything. But if G-d created everything from nothing; that means that everything does not really belong to him – only that which only he alone has improved, is rightfully his. This is because he started with nothing therefore he cannot say that what is; was always his. Likewise anyone that also has made improvements (however small or seeming insignificant) can argue their share of things based on their improvements. To deny this share of improvement would make G-d unjust.

But if G-d created our universe out of something that already existed and that belong exclusively to him then even improvements become his and any reward or punishment could be metered out according to contract or covenant, which is exactly how the justice and mercy of G-d works. Everything used to create this universe was G-d’s and belonged to him and as such owner of all things he has complete sovereign over all things and therefore no one can benefit except by contract or covenant. It does not matter if anyone improves anything – without authorization they have no claim and in true justice cannot demand benefit. For example someone cannot come mow my lawn and demand I pay them for it unless we have an agreement or contract. But if there is no “history” of exclusive ownership then there is no claim beyond the “improvements” that are made.


Now I previously indicated I would show how G-d is the only rightful owner of all things. I begin with the Einstein equation of “E = M {times} C (squared)”. This tells us that mass (all physical stuff) can be “created” or organized by the manipulation of energy and light. It is very interesting to me that the scriptures tell us that the first step in creation involved the manipulation of light. The light in question came from G-d’s own personal repository of light. I would point out that G-d is an owner of light and all the light used in creation was his. The second thing needed was energy. Again I submit that G-d’s personal repository of energy (or power) was used exclusively to create this universe.

I see no point in the argument that G-d created the physical universe from nothing. It makes no sense to me. How can it be argued that only G-d could be the creator but that he did so without using any of his power or light??? If his power and light was part of creation than the discussion is placed to rest – there was no creation from nothing. There was something that G-d used and all things came directly from that something.

The Traveler

[mel6890]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

Do "traditional Christians" as you put it, believe that we are created in the image of God?

If so, then how is that possible when the trinity is nothing like us? (that is how it appears to me at least)

If Jesus will retain his perfected resurrected body, then doesn't this fundamentally change the nature of the trinity? And doesn't that mean that at one time he did not have one? How can they be one person ever again after a resurrection? And then does the Father have a body too? Does the holy ghost have a body too? Why would the Lord come to get a body if being a spirit was superior? What is the purpose in doing so...if he/it is already everything he needs to be and has been that way thru the eternities?

Why did God the Father call Jesus his son if he in reality was not his son at all, but a part of him or expression of him?

If you were to see the trinity in person, what would it look like?

And isn't part of the description of the trinity that they have no parts or passions? Why the questions about emotions? And how can they have no parts....but be resurrected?

Did Moses believe in the trinity? Did Adam? Did they teach the trinity in the 10 commandments or in the Law of moses? Did Jesus teach the trinity? If so where?

When Jesus came to earth, why did he pray to the Father? Why did he ask the Father to bless the people? Why did he defer to the Father and say so many times that he only did the will of the father? Why was he allowed to be tempted? Why did he ask why the Father had forsaken him? I ask all of these and wonder why he would talk to himself in such a manner as a servant or as someone who deferred to someone of higher authority.

What is the purpose of the creation of man from the perspective of the trinity? Why was there a need for a sacrifice? Why are we invited to become like something that is impossible to become?

Yes....I have many questions. But I figured it was ok to ask since the OP seems to want LDS people to understand. So....there are my questions....the things that confuse me. Maybe you can help me understand.

I would recommend watching this sermon on the trinity, it helped to clear up some of my misunderstandings and i think it will answer most of your questions

Mars Hill Church | Doctrine | Trinity: God Is

[Interested]

Man was created in the image of God. (Adam) Mankind on the other hand was created in the image of imperfect Adam.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Interested

Man was created in the image of God. (Adam) Mankind on the other hand was created in the image of imperfect Adam.

You must be a lawyer.....Man, Men or Mankind is the SAME THING. Resorting to semantics to justify a theological position seems like a very weak argument. There is ample evidence in the bible to assert that we ARE the offspring of God.

Originally Posted by Islander

There is ample evidence in the bible to assert that we ARE the offspring of God.

OK, GO!!!!!

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

The point is that God cannot be found merely within our 4 dimensional time-space, cause if he needed that to exist then he couldn't exist before he created the universe we live in.

It would be sensible that eternity had a separate time dimension. That is if string theory proves to be true there is up to 7 dimension not used currently within our universe.

See, this is where being a mystic really pays off. LoL. 11 dimensions.

In the Kabbalah, there are 10 attributes of Godliness that correspond to the 'dimensions'. Plus one that is not technically an attribute, and is not advertised (Da'at). That makes 11. Cool.


HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

The point is that God cannot be found merely within our 4 dimensional time-space, cause if he needed that to exist then he couldn't exist before he created the universe we live in.

Oh, yes, almost forgot. AND I believe that God is both manifest and transcendental in nature, though the Church only teaches and emphasizes the manifest God* (ie, Joseph's First Vision). The manifest nature is found within the dimensions of our universe, the transcendent is outside it. Both are real.


HiJolly

*exceptions would be D&C 88 & 93

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by Traveler

But if G-d created our universe out of something that already existed and that belong exclusively to him then even improvements become his and any reward or punishment could be metered out according to contract or covenant, which is exactly how the justice and mercy of G-d works. Everything used to create this universe was G-d’s and belonged to him and as such owner of all things he has complete sovereign over all things and therefore no one can benefit except by contract or covenant. It does not matter if anyone improves anything – without authorization they have no claim and in true justice cannot demand benefit. For example someone cannot come mow my lawn and demand I pay them for it unless we have an agreement or contract. But if there is no “history” of exclusive ownership then there is no claim beyond the “improvements” that are made.


Now I previously indicated I would show how G-d is the only rightful owner of all things. I begin with the Einstein equation of “E = M {times} C (squared)”. This tells us that mass (all physical stuff) can be “created” or organized by the manipulation of energy and light. It is very interesting to me that the scriptures tell us that the first step in creation involved the manipulation of light. The light in question came from G-d’s own personal repository of light. I would point out that G-d is an owner of light and all the light used in creation was his. The second thing needed was energy. Again I submit that G-d’s personal repository of energy (or power) was used exclusively to create this universe.

I see no point in the argument that G-d created the physical universe from nothing. It makes no sense to me. How can it be argued that only G-d could be the creator but that he did so without using any of his power or light??? If his power and light was part of creation than the discussion is placed to rest – there was no creation from nothing. There was something that G-d used and all things came directly from that something.

The Traveler

Woohoo! It's like Christmas all over again. Good man, Traveler.

Something that might help: the Jewish mystics call Ein "nothing". There you go. From Ein comes Ein Sof. From Ein Sof comes Ein Sof Aur. From there, we get the manifest universe. Something from nothing IS possible, if you know the vocabulary.

Of course in LDS terminology we think of it as God's light (glory) eminating into space (the cube of space) and forming through covenant all the universe that is manifest. Or at least, *I* do.

HiJolly