The Trinity Questions – For Traditional Christians - Page 2

AnthonyB · #11 (**permalink**) 10-05-2008, 09:55 PM

ceeboo,

Thanks for your response. (Yes question 5 is not part of the social trinitarian questions but a personal query, I come from a non creedal traditional, whilst I personally affirm the historic creeds as in line with what the NT teaches (if I felt the need to descibe God using Greek philosophical concepts), they are not the marker of a disciple of Jesus to me).

PC,
From your previous posts I would take it 1-4 would be yes for you?

Miss-halfway,

I wouldn't disagree with anything PC said. As for a definition the Nicene and Chalcedon creeds are the common definitions that is nearly universally accepted but it is as much about what you can't say about God then what you can.

God that splits into different roles is Modalism, it seems that a lot if LDS think that is traditional Christians believe.

As for what Father looks like, Revelation has some verbal descriptors but I would say indescribable, beyond our comprehension. We will struggle to say anything when in the presence of the Father or to remember anything but the absolute love, goodness, holiness present before us.

(If your wondering about the phrase "traditional christians", it is a way to distinguish Christians who follow the traditional Christian teachings and Bible and who largely recognize each other as fellow followers of Jesus as opposed to those, like the LDS, who have differing veiws on a range of topics. I could use Christians and Mormons but a number of LDS see themselves as Christians too, so I use LDS and traditional Christians.)

abqfriend,

Could you have a go at my questions, I would love to get some feedback from Catholic/Orthodox people?

bytor2112 · #12 (**permalink**) 10-05-2008, 10:02 PM

Athanasian Creed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

ceeboo · #13 (**permalink**) 10-05-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

ceeboo,

Thanks for your response. (Yes question 5 is not part of the social trinitarian questions but a personal query).

I wouldn't disagree with anything PC said. As for a definition the Nicene and Chalcedon creeds are the common definitions that is nearly universally accepted but it is as much about what you can't say about God then what you can.

Hello AnthonyB,

You are more than welcome for my response.

Question 5, Yes a personal query, a personal journey, and a personal bias ( I have one of those too )

I also would not disagree with anything PC said, ( but please don't tell him that, )

Peace,
Carl

ceeboo · #14 (**permalink**) 10-05-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bytor2112

Athanasian Creed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Well bytor,

Thanks for that usefull and right on topic post

Shall I post some of the JS or other Prophets teachings as well ( would that also be usefull for this thread??)

I kinds think that contribution was not what the OP had in mind.

BTW, I noticed you must have missed the first 5 of the 5 questions

God bless,
Carl

bytor2112 · #15 (**permalink**) 10-05-2008, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ceeboo

Well bytor,

Thanks for that usefull and right on topic post

Shall I post some of the JS or other Prophets teachings as well ( would that also be usefull for this thread??)

I kinds think that contribution was not what the OP had in mind.

BTW, I noticed you must have missed the first 5 of the 5 questions

God bless,
Carl

Um....... I thought it might be helpful to understand the trinity...no??

My answers were yes, yes, yes, yes and yes...we need to understand the nature of God in order to undertand the plan of salvation....so maybe E

AnthonyB · #16 (**permalink**) 10-05-2008, 10:28 PM

I'm flexible. Will add another questions to the list.

Bytor,

Athanasian creed has never been approved by an ecumenical council and was late indevelopment and only used in the west. (I'm prettry sure all LDS will answer yes to 1-4 and no historic creed for 5 and 6) I'm hoping for responses from traditional or non-LDs Christians.)

Here are the questions again....

1) Are the persons of the Trinity capable of expressing emotion to each other? (ie can they love each other)

2) Are they capable of communicating with each other?

3) Can they be in differing spatial locations? (ie differing places, the Father was not crucified with the Son)

4) Will Jesus maintain his resurrected body in heaven?

5) Is holding to the historic creeds…

a. essential for salvation
b. good for spiritual health but not an absolute requirement
c. not important
d. other…Please specify

6) If you hold to creeds which do you hold to....(Multiple answers allowed)
a) Jesus is Lord
b) Apostles
c) Nicene
d) Chalcedon
e) Athanasian
f) All of the above
Answer for me: Primarily 6 a.

prisonchaplain · #17 (**permalink**) 10-05-2008, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

Thank you PC. Frankly, I have more questions. Uh oh.

I think perhaps I need a definition of the trinity. Does everyone in traditional Christianity believe in the same definition?

Trinity: The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Each is a distinct person, yet they are the one true and living God. Only Jesus has a body, so he's the only one we could look upon as being human-looking.

Quote:

It sounds to me like you are saying that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are indeed three different, individual entities, but that they are one God. Well, frankly that sounds closer to the definition of the Godhead. I was under the impression that the Trinity was that one god could split itself into three parts depending on the purpose of the mission.

The main difference is that LDS teaching is essentially that there are three entirely separate god-beings in the Godhead. Trinitarians believe there are three persons, but only one God. God does not split himself, or appear in different forms. That teachings is called modalism, and is also considered a heresy, by Trinitarians.

Misshalfway · #18 (**permalink**) 10-05-2008, 11:49 PM

Modalism is considered heresy. Thank you. That was the missing piece.

How can three persons be the exact same God or the exact same being and not be modalism or the Godhead?

Is the Son the literal son of God the father? Or is that just a title?

For those of you who believe the word of God is only to be found in the bible, why are creeds such as the Nicean, used as the measuring stick for proper understanding of God? It seems to be a huge contradiction to me. (I say so with as much respect as I can.)

Do you all believe that we humans will all receive a resurrected body as part of salvation?

YoungMormonRoyalist · #19 (**permalink**) 10-06-2008, 03:05 AM

May I be the first to propose that while we certainly disagree with most of Trinitarianism, that there is much more in common than we think?

The latter-day Saints believe in one God, or Godhead. Personally I think the words can be used interchangebly.

Father in Heaven is our God, Jesus Christ is our God, and (though it is not said as much) the Holy Spirit is our God. They are distinct in body, and personage, and yet they are one in unity and form the Godhead, and they are our God. (This is making sense to me, but then again it's quite late and when I get somewhat tired concepts that are for the most part complicated become quite simple to my mind (May I also point out that this post will most likely seem like babel to me in the morning))