The Trinity Questions – For Traditional Christians

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

I'm flexible. Will add another questions to the list.

1) Are the persons of the Trinity capable of expressing emotion to each other? (ie can they love each other)
2) Are they capable of communicating with each other?
3) Can they be in differing spatial locations? (ie differing places, the Father was not crucified with the Son)[
4) Will Jesus maintain his resurrected body in heaven?
5) Is holding to the historic creeds…

a. essential for salvation
b. good for spiritual health but not an absolute requirement
c. not important
d. other…Please specify

YES FOR 1-4, and for #5 I'd suggest that having a correct understanding of the nature of God, of humanity, and of the plan of salvation starts with "b" and works towards "a." "To whom much is given, much is required." In other words, the longer you've been in the faith, and the more access you have to truth, and the more interaction you have with the Holy Spirit, the closer you get to "a." Only God can judge our souls, though.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

Modalism is considered heresy. Thank you. That was the missing piece.

How can three persons be the exact same God or the exact same being and not be modalism or the Godhead?

That is the divine mystery. We don't know. There is no way for us mortal beings to fathom God's ultimate nature. And, because of this mystery, Jews and Muslims join in condemning our theology as polytheism. But we insist that the three persons of the Godhead, distinct in their personality, are nevertheless one essential being--truly one God.

Is the Son the literal son of God the father? Or is that just a title?

Yes and No. Jesus surely is the Son of God, and this is more than a title. Yet, they are both Co-eternal, as is the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it would not be proper to say that the Father created or in any way "started" the Son.

For those of you who believe the word of God is only to be found in the bible, why are creeds such as the Nicean, used as the measuring stick for proper understanding of God? It seems to be a huge contradiction to me. (I say so with as much respect as I can.)

You are fine. God has given some to be te[achers. And, though we do not accept the strongly hierarchical nature of church governance found in either the Catholic or LDS churches, we do nevertheless recognize that church teaching that spans centuries carries significant weight, compared to the novel little twist I might have found in a passage during my devotional reading this week. And, in reality, we do not heavily study those creeds. Rather, we've distilled the basics and kept that which is true and relevant.

Do you all believe that we humans will all receive a resurrected body as part of salvation?

Yes.

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

6) If you hold to creeds which do you hold to....(Multiple answers allowed)
a) Jesus is Lord
b) Apostles
c) Nicene
d) Chalcedon
e) Athanasian
f) All of the above

I grew up with the Apostles Creed and like it because its familiar and memorized. But the Athanasian (the one bytor posted) is my favorite because it goes into great detail.

M.

(I bet some of you think I'm going to hell for sure)

[AnthonyB]

Thanks for those who responded, 100% (4 of 4) socail trinitarians but maybe Christians who post on an LDS forum aren't a good sample. Although I would point out the responders came from various traditions (ie Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal and Restoration Movement) I will take questions 1-4 to a Christian forum I post on to see what response I get, my expectations would be around 80% of Christians are socail trinitarians.

Misshalfway,

I'd even admit the LDS Godhead is more logical and easier to explain. The problem for me is that I can't personally see it as biblical. (I'm not wanting a verse war on this, there are plenty of these already on this topic on this forum) The Bible ((OT and NT) and the BoM as well) repeatedly has statements that for me testify about God being one God but it then also personifies and diefies all three persons.

LDS perceive God as man glorified, non-LDS Christians see God as in another category altogether. By firmly placing God in the same species (for want of a better word) as man, LDS precieve a united multi personal being as impossible. Non-LDS Christians see God as a different species. Just as I don't expect a dog to understand the complexities of humans, I don't expect humans (like myself) to fully understand the complexities of God.

I hope this doesn't offend people but I feel many LDS hedge on this. They will say there is one God and that the Bible and BoM clearly testify to this. Then they will say but really there are three Gods or many Gods. Just as I feel that non-socail trinitarians underplay the distinctive personhood of each of the three persons, LDS IMHO underplay the unity of Godhead. I see this as a reaction against what you have percieved as the under appreciation of the personhood of the persons of God by trinitarians. LDS so often from what I've seen, when confronted with trinitarianism immediately begin defending the seperate personhood within the Godhead. Actually there is IMHO much less difference in this area between LDS and non-LDS Christians than both sides think.

The big divide between us IMHO is whether God and man are the same species. From that the different perceptions of God, man, eternal destinies, continued gender differentiation, God having a physical home and many other differences all spring from.

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

Thanks for those who responded, 100% (4 of 4) socail trinitarians but maybe Christians who post on an LDS forum aren't a good sample. Although I would point out the responders came from various traditions (ie Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal and Restoration Movement) I will take questions 1-4 to a Christian forum I post on to see what response I get, my expectations would be around 80% of Christians are socail trinitarians.

Misshalfway,

I'd even admit the LDS Godhead is more logical and easier to explain. The problem for me is that I can't personally see it as biblical. (I'm not wanting a verse war on this, there are plenty of these already on this topic on this forum) The Bible ((OT and NT) and the BoM as well) repeatedly has statements that for me testify about God being one God but it then also personifies and diefies all three persons.

LDS perceive God as man glorified, non-LDS Christians see God as in another category altogether. By firmly placing God in the same species (for want of a better word) as man, LDS precieve a united multi personal being as impossible. Non-LDS Christians see God as a different species. Just as I don't expect a dog to understand the complexities of humans, I don't expect humans (like myself) to fully understand the complexities of God.

I hope this doesn't offend people but I feel many LDS hedge on this. The will say there is one God and that the Bible and BoM clearly testify to this. Then they will say but really there are three Gods or many Gods. Just as I feel that non-socail trinitarians underplay the distinctive personhood of each of the three persons, LDS IMHO underplay the unity of Godhead. I see this as a reaction against what you have percieved as the under appreciation of the personhood of the persons of God by trinitarians. LDS so often from what I've seen, when confronted with trinitarianism immediately begin defending the seperate personhood within the Godhead. Actually there is IMHO much less difference in this area between LDS and non-LDS Christians than both sides think.

The big divide between us IMHO is whether God and man are the same species. From that the different perceptions of God, man, eternal destinies, continued gender differentiation, God having a physical home and many other differences all spring from.

I think you describe the differences very well, Anthony. The Trinity confuses me for many reasons. And I don't think that I could ever be persuaded to believe it. But I do appreciate your willingness to describe the belief. I can't say that my questions have been satisfied, but as you all seem to agree, the parts that can't be answered are part of the mysteries of God. It feels like you all accept that ambiguity and that it somehow makes your faith stronger. As long as God is different from man, he is superior to man. I think from that perspective, I can see how the LDS view may seem like we are diminishing the greatness or power of God by identifying with him.

Anyway, I thank you again for attempting to answer. And I think at the end of the day, what really brings us together is our desire to please God and our heartfelt belief in something beyond our earth and ourselves.

[August]

The Trinity is really confusing, and something I struggle to really understand, but it's like the Church teaches, it's a mystery that our human mind isn't capable of comprehending.

It also should be noted that a lot of the heretical views on the Trinity came from peoples discomfort with the idea that God died, so they sought to put Jesus on a lower level than His Father, or to seperate them. I don't know which ones taught what though, have to look that one up.

[AnthonyB]

August,

If you get a chance I would love some more repsonses to my Q's on your views on the trinity (especially Q 1-4)?

[August]

1) Are the persons of the Trinity capable of expressing emotion to each other? (ie can they love each other)

2) Are they capable of communicating with each other?

3) Can they be in differing spatial locations? (ie differing places, the Father was not crucified with the Son)

4) Will Jesus maintain his resurrected body in heaven?
[/quote]

I suppose my answer to all of these is the same, that nothing is impossible for God. Our limited minds can't comprehend how Jesus is the Son of God, how he can pray to His Father, and yet still be fully God? God the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are the exact same being, yet are also 3 persons. Don't take this as an official position, it's just the way I look at it, if any of the other Catholics here need to correct me, please do so.

I'll be the first to admit, if I look at things purely on logic the Trinity makes less sense than three seperate beings. It's one of those things I accept on faith, because I could never hope to fully understand the nature of God.

[candyprpl]

Hi everyone -- what a wonderful thread! Such respect from all -- it's been a pleasure reading all the posts.

I do believe the LDS view of the Godhead but I also understand what has been said in this thread. It's my everending problem -- always feeling caught in the middle. I would be a horrible debator -- I would say yes, you're right and when a rebuttal was stated, I'd say, yes, you're right.

I also have some of the same questions as Misshalfway and the answers have been informative. I still don't quite understand the explanations but I know that when the LDS try to explain some of our doctrine it gets confusing at times as well. I guess what's important is that we all have common beliefs and those are probably the only beliefs that matter to our salvation.

There are many mysteries about God that we are not to know in this life and I think we can all agree on that point.

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by August

The Trinity is really confusing, and something I struggle to really understand, but it's like the Church teaches, it's a mystery that our human mind isn't capable of comprehending.

It also should be noted that a lot of the heretical views on the Trinity came from peoples discomfort with the idea that God died, so they sought to put Jesus on a lower level than His Father, or to seperate them. I don't know which ones taught what though, have to look that one up.

I don't think I can argue that there are things that we can't understand. But I don't think either, that it is beyond God's capability to help us understand or bring things to our understanding in simple clarity. In fact, I think he is absolutely eager to tell us and show us who he really is and to help us understand.