The Trinity Questions – For Traditional Christians

[abqfriend]

I -Carol- was only responding to your request for information on the Catholic faith and nothing more.

-Carol

Originally Posted by brother01

So why the Catholic comment? I've been to an RCC and had several deep conversations with them over the years. I respect the knowledge of some basics of the doctrine of Jesus Christ, but there are some big issues with RCC history and even bigger issues with doctrines that have been added that are not the doctrine Jesus gave from the Father such as their veneration of Mary, and switching certain things out from paganism and calling them Christian. Jesus wrote to the Church at Pergamos as a compromising Church and spoke about their idolatry and immorality. Most things in the Revelation of Jesus Christ are signified and I take that in such a way that those who add to or take away from what God has declared to be both immoral and practicing idolatry. Their having some statues is a minor issue in comparison to having slurred the very doctrine of Jesus Christ that God gave Him charge to speak and preach and reveal. So how many Churches are guilty of not repenting and turning to God with their whole heart and seeking to observe whatsoever Jesus taught during the first century?

Just an added bonus thought, but do we really have the concept of prophecy that the Jewish mind of the old times had? Their concept was that it not only had to be true and according to what God had already given, but that it also had to fit the patterns given... like Abraham and Isaac and the sacrifice to God and Jesus on the cross or the ancient betrothal period and marriage feast to the Church being the bride of Christ that He will return suddenly for and she is to be ready for His coming.. The patterns abound, and these are but two. You might want to see if the added revelations of LDS fit the patterns given by God.

[brother01]

Thanks, but from my comments there was no intent for asking about what Catholics believe. I thought the other poster had a specific link to a discussion for someone by the 'name' of 'catholic' to converse with here on the trinity topic:-)

Two things I marvel at:

1. How Orthodox complain about LDS and the Trinity doctrine, but not Church of Christ.

2. How LDS even entertain that God is not the only God who ever was, is and will ever be - the source of all that is, both seen and unseen. (not just of this world or solar system or galaxy or universe) There are perhaps millions and billions of angels (els), but only one God. The angels and demons both witness this is true, let alone the Son of God and the holy prophets of God.

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by brother01

1) Are the persons of the Trinity capable of expressing emotion to each other? (ie can they love each other)

What does the trinity doctrine have to do with being a disciple of Jesus or faithful to Him or obedience to what He commanded? If God is One, why do some try to take a spiritual scalpel and dissect God somehow?...

2) Are they capable of communicating with each other?

This sounds like a non question to me. What's the point?

3) Can they be in differing spatial locations? (ie differing places, the Father was not crucified with the Son)

Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for those who are His and to be our High Priest, the Spirit is our Comforter and surity of God's ownership and presence. Jesus also said whereever two or more are gathered in His name that He is there with them. Seems that would be in Spirit.

4) Will Jesus maintain his resurrected body in heaven?

The revelation of Jesus Christ shows Him quite different than on the cross; more like what He was at the transfiguration event/vision.


5) Is holding to the historic creeds…

Can any historic creed compare to the pure teachings of Jesus? None that I've seen:-)

a. essential for salvation
b. good for spiritual health but not an absolute requirement
c. not important
d. other…Please specify

"D" Jesus said we will be judged by His words, the very doctrine of God He taught, as well as the truth of God taught in the Holy Scriptures. Jesus said these things were both imperrishable, so they need not restoration, but to know what has been revealed and forgotten - but certainly not 'lost' to need to be 'restored'.

One Disciple to Another

brother01,

Are you questioning the reason for this thread? Anthony, the creator of the thread said:

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

Miss Halfway,

...I was however to attempting to ascertain how many social trinitarians there are amongst traditional christians, and the questions are aimed to discover that.

M.

[Flyonthewall]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Trinity: The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Each is a distinct person, yet they are the one true and living God. Only Jesus has a body, so he's the only one we could look upon as being human-looking.

The main difference is that LDS teaching is essentially that there are three entirely separate god-beings in the Godhead. Trinitarians believe there are three persons, but only one God. God does not split himself, or appear in different forms. That teachings is called modalism, and is also considered a heresy, by Trinitarians.

PC,
I hope you can help my misunderstanding on this issue. This is a big blind spot for me about the Trinity(not the only blind spot, but the biggest).
As you stated, in the Trinity, there are three persons but only one God. From my point of view, if all three persons are individually God, then there are three Gods. However, time and time again, Trinitarians say no that's not right.
Then in my mind, the Trinitarian God is not a specific person, but the container, called "essence" or "nature" that these persons reside in. The individuals themselves are called God, but only because of the container.
I am sure I am missing some peice of the equation, or maybe because of my LDS upbringing, my mind isn't wired in a compatible way for understanding this, but I really would like to understand this.
Hopefully, your presence here, may give you an understanding of LDS thinking that can help make this easier to understand.

[brother01]

Originally Posted by Maureen

brother01,

Are you questioning the reason for this thread? Anthony, the creator of the thread said:



M.

Guess I'm not a social trinitarian:-)

The way it seems to me is that we are made up of body, mind and spirit, but I'm just one person. So why can't God be made up of Father, Word and Spirit, as One God, yet the aspects of each are of the One and are One even though one part may abide in an area or demension beyond where the central Father resides.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Flyonthewall

PC,
I hope you can help my misunderstanding on this issue. This is a big blind spot for me about the Trinity(not the only blind spot, but the biggest).
As you stated, in the Trinity, there are three persons but only one God. From my point of view, if all three persons are individually God, then there are three Gods. However, time and time again, Trinitarians say no that's not right.

Each of the three persons is God, and there is only one God, because they are one in essence. There cannot be three gods, because we join Jews and Muslims in taking Dueteronomy 6:4 quite literally--Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Not one for us, or for our world, but ONE.

Then in my mind, the Trinitarian God is not a specific person, but the container, called "essence" or "nature" that these persons reside in. The individuals themselves are called God, but only because of the container.
I am sure I am missing some peice of the equation, or maybe because of my LDS upbringing, my mind isn't wired in a compatible way for understanding this, but I really would like to understand this.
Hopefully, your presence here, may give you an understanding of LDS thinking that can help make this easier to understand.

I'm not sure if you are missing something so much as adding too much. "How can God be one and yet three distinct persons?" That is your basic question. Your prophet gave you an answer: the unity is one of purpose only.

We trinitarians say, "No...God is one essential being." So, how can that be--three persons, one being? It just is. Perhaps Joseph Smith's answer is more satisfying, because it's easier to wrap the mind around. However, trinitarians believe ourselves to be absolute monotheists. So . . . we simply accept what we see in Scripture, and leave the "how it works" to God. After all, it's his nature.

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by brother01

Guess I'm not a social trinitarian:-)

The way it seems to me is that we are made up of body, mind and spirit, but I'm just one person. So why can't God be made up of Father, Word and Spirit, as One God, yet the aspects of each are of the One and are One even though one part may abide in an area or demension beyond where the central Father resides.

Yes we as humans are also a tri-unity of body, mind and spirit; one way of seeing us created in the image of a tri-unity God. The only thing we can't do is separate God into parts because God is one and cannot be divided into parts. Each person of the Godhead is individually and collectively God.

M.

[AnthonyB]

brother1,

Thanks for your contribution. The questions were aimed to discover how many of traditional Christians (ie non-LDS mainstream Christians, everything in my book from Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, nondenom, SDA) were socail trinitarians. They might seem trivial to you but I had just asked who is a socail trinitarians I think few would have known what I meant.

The question came from another thread were one of the more learned LDS poster's suggested that socail trinitarians were fairly close to the LDS concept of the Godhead but that social trinitarians are a small minority in the Christian population. I disagreed since although I had not until recently heard of the term, the concept would fit closely with how I think the vast majority of Christians (including myself) think.

I notice form your profile your LDS, your views however appear somewhat different from most other LDS posters here. You statements sound almost trinitarian. Would you agree with One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God, they are one but but each also God? Many LDS seem IMHO to want to use logic to trump scripture (and even the BoM) and declare there must 3 Gods since all three of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are given distinct personal attributes in scripture.

As for the Church of Christ, I could ask which Church of Christ, there are several very diverse groups which lay claim to that name. However I will presume that you meant the church of Christ, that came out of the Restoration Movement. I know little about the US church, I'm from Australia but depite our common anti-creedal heritage and wish to avoid non-biblical terms, certainly in Australia we are by and large nearly univerally trinitarian in expression. The bible says one God, and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God, I'm happy to leave it at that but if I wish to talk to others I have got to IMHO try to understand what they mean and use phrases that make sure were really communicating about the same concepts.

[Flyonthewall]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Each of the three persons is God, and there is only one God, because they are one in essence. There cannot be three gods, because we join Jews and Muslims in taking Dueteronomy 6:4 quite literally--Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Not one for us, or for our world, but ONE.



I'm not sure if you are missing something so much as adding too much. "How can God be one and yet three distinct persons?" That is your basic question. Your prophet gave you an answer: the unity is one of purpose only.

We trinitarians say, "No...God is one essential being." So, how can that be--three persons, one being? It just is. Perhaps Joseph Smith's answer is more satisfying, because it's easier to wrap the mind around. However, trinitarians believe ourselves to be absolute monotheists. So . . . we simply accept what we see in Scripture, and leave the "how it works" to God. After all, it's his nature.

When I first read about the Trinity, I had thought that the Trinity and Godhead concepts were very close, if not essentially the same thing. If essence or nature equivocates to purpose, function, testimony, etc. then it is the same concept.


P.S. I tried to thank you for replying, but got a note that my account doesn't have that access or that it has been de-activated. THANKS for your response!

[a-train]

I have decided that Mormons and Trinitarians believe the very same theological model of the Godhead with a single distinction: The existance of distinct and seperate corporeal tabernacles for the Father and the Son respectively; a notion acknowledged by Mormons and disbelieved by non-Mormons. All other differences are purely semantic.

-a-train