What's so hard to understand about the Trinity vs. the LDS Godhead?

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

That's it. IMHO, it is not complicated. What becomes rapidly complex is trying to explain how it is possible to have three persons be of one essence. But, since the Scriptures do not explain it, I don't see why we have to. Since when does God have to explain himself to us? He reveals much, but his ways are not our ways, and He is our Creator, we are not his.

HE does...but then, HE calls HIS own and we need to learn, we cannot call ourselves.

If one sees the Godhead in its fullness, you will find three beings standing there before your own eyes. Now, I don't see why this is so complicated.

[Maureen]

I was looking forward to the promised explanation where the Trinity is "easy to understand." I do feel a tad disappointed. I have the concept down fairly well, but its anything but "easy to understand" for me. Thanks for trying PC.

IMO, I wouldn't say that the Trinity is easy to understand, but I think it is easy to explain. Understanding or accepting that explanation is another thing entirely.

[omega0401]

The doctrine of the Trinity is very difficult to understand when reading certain scriptures. Stephen, the first martyr of the early Church that we know of anyway, while he was being stoned said, “being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God , And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God ” (Acts 7:55-56). Yet people will read that and still believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are still one being.

I don’t believe that God wanted this doctrine to be this difficult to understand and I think this scripture (there are others) shows that. If God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are indeed one person why does the Bible confuse us further by having this scripture in there? The three are one in purpose and they represent the Godhood with our Heavenly Father as the one we worship but they are not one and the same person or physical being. I believe the scriptures are easier to understand the nature of God and the Godhead when thought of in this way.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Maxel

I've seen this defense a lot- that the doctrine of the Trinity was arrived at, in part, by a dire need to preserve monotheism in the religion (that's not what you're saying here, but I've read elsewhere that that was the case). I have no problem with monotheism (I describe myself as a monotheist, after all) but I am hesitant when an undue concern for one particular doctrine seems to trump all other factors. Was that a deciding factor when they cemented the final drafts of the Creed?

Yes, I'm sure that staying monotheist was a huge anchor in the early efforts to define God's nature. The most serious heresy in pentecostalism arose out of an even more fervent desire to do so--Oneness Pentecostals insist that God is one essence and one person--but three modes, or roles.

Interestingly, in my three years here I've seen a few LDS hold on to monotheism (Dr. Robinson, from the How Wide the Divide book, is a good example), but others embrace the middle ground of henotheism (many gods exist, but we worship only one), and some others simply say...yes we are ultimately polytheists, since we believe we will become Gods ourselves.

For the early church Christians, and for many of us today, monotheism is one of those few anchors that helps us feel theologically safe--particularly since, unlike your own church, in Protestantism there are differences of belief about important (though secondary) doctrines.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by omega0401

The doctrine of the Trinity is very difficult to understand when reading certain scriptures. Stephen, the first martyr of the early Church that we know of anyway, while he was being stoned said, “being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God , And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God ” (Acts 7:55-56). Yet people will read that and still believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are still one being.

"God in three persons, blessed Trinity." This from the hymn, Holy Holy Holy. Also, it's in the OP. We believe that the one true God is three persons. Again and again and again...Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons, and it's not surprising to us at all that they interact with each other. The very scene you describe in Acts is a great passage demonstrating the Trinity. There they are...all three persons...the one God.

I don’t believe that God wanted this doctrine to be this difficult to understand and I think this scripture (there are others) shows that. If God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are indeed one person why does the Bible confuse us further by having this scripture in there? The three are one in purpose and they represent the Godhood with our Heavenly Father as the one we worship but they are not one and the same person or physical being. I believe the scriptures are easier to understand the nature of God and the Godhead when thought of in this way.

It is a mystery and a paradox how three persons can be one God. But, we believe this is so.

My question to you--how can you be monotheist if you say that there are three Gods--even if you only worship the Father (though many LDS would likely say they worship Jesus too)?

[LittleWyvern]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

My question to you--how can you be monotheist if you say that there are three Gods--even if you only worship the Father (though many LDS would likely say they worship Jesus too)?

Monotheist is belief in one God, correct?

Well, we believe that the Holy Father is God, the Son is not God, and the Holy Spirit is not God. So, to us, there's only one God there.

[a-train]

Originally Posted by LittleWyvern

Monotheist is belief in one God, correct?

Well, we believe that the Holy Father is God, the Son is not God, and the Holy Spirit is not God. So, to us, there's only one God there.

Jesus IS God. There are many verses which say so. The most prominent is the first page of the Book of Mormon which says plainly that the purpose of the Book of Mormon is "the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God".

What?!? The purpose of Mormonism is to convince people that Jesus is God?!?!?!? YES.

LDS persons have trouble with the Trinity for two reasons: first they don't understand Mormon theology, second they don't understand Modalism. Understanding the difference between Modalism and Trinitarianism is a huge help to Mormons. Most Mormons think Trinitarianism is Modalism. The Trinity is in fact much closer to LDS Theology than most Mormons think.

Mormons should not feel compelled to somehow confine their theology to any distinct definition of Monotheism, just as the Trinitarians don't. Within Trinitarian theology, there is a sense in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are plural and another in which they are singular. The same is true for Mormon theology.

Mormons who understand LDS teaching will quickly agree with Trinitarians that the Father is not the Son nor is He the Holy Ghost. They will also quickly agree that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one. It is only the meaning of this oneness that is in question. Frankly, it is not required that a person come to any certain understanding of this definition to be baptized, or to accept Christ.

Much of the early Mormon preaching which contrasted Mormon theology with then pervading Christian beliefs would be out of place today. Commonly accepted Christian theology has in many ways changed since then. Orson Pratt spoke out against the theology of a god which is "neither here nor there", which has "neither height nor depth", which has "no body, parts, or passions". These theological definitions, while still sacred to some, are not the pervading Christian theology today.

Most Christians today believe in a physical resurrection of the Saviour and a bodily ascension to heaven. Trinitarians further acknowledge the Presence and manifestation of the Holy Ghost seperate from the Presence of the Son. The only limitation the Trinitarian theology would pose to a full acknowledgement of LDS theology is that it becomes by some rule impossible for the Father to have a body of flesh and bone seperate from the Son. Further, it is not believed that the Father and the Son have seperate histories.

Thus the difference has become much more subtle than most understand. However, when asked if the Father and Son are one, or if Jesus is God, Mormons commonly answer "NO", which is simply incorrect and which only continues a legacy of misunderstanding.

The LDS scriptures are unequivocal that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all one and that they are God. The Father is God in both his status and species, as well is the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Also problematic is the term "God".

If it signifies a species, then the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all "God".

If it is a Pronoun, then the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all "God".

If it signifies status, then the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all "God".

Many LDS persons use "God" as a Pronoun referring directly to the Father. It is because of this sense that they say: "Jesus is not God". Bruce R. McConkie went into some detail about the Father's status being higher than the Son's. He appealed to that to justify a sense in which "God" could be exclusively applied to the Father. Through this sense it can be said that Mormons are strictly Monotheists, but that is only a technicality.

Monotheism to some denotes the singular existance of God in His species. In this definition, there can be no other being of the same species of God. To this, Mormons are completely opposed. Mormon teaching is plain that God and man are the same species. Upon his birth in Bethlehem, the Saviour did not change His species, He is, was, and always will be human. The Father also is human.

Although I cannot see how Trinitarianism explicitly indicates that God is not human, the notion is believed for the most part by Trinitarians as far as I can tell. Still, Trinitarians would doubtfully argue that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are of distinct species. Indeed they are of the same species. Thus even Trinitarians acknowledge that there does exist a sense in which three distinct persons are of the species of God, and thus a plurality of that species exists. However, they maintain that this plurality cannot be so stated that it would in some way depart from a strict monotheist view. Many Muslims argue that Trinitarianism is not Monotheist enough for this reason.

Most Mormons have the difference between Trinitarianism and LDS theology overstated. This is our own fault. I hope that as we continue our vibrant history, we will better understand this issue.

-a-train

[omega0401]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

My question to you--how can you be monotheist if you say that there are three Gods--even if you only worship the Father (though many LDS would likely say they worship Jesus too)?

We believe that there are three Gods but we worship God the Father, one God. I think of the three as a Presidency, God the Father as the President, Jesus Christ as the First Counselor, and the Holy Ghost as the Second Counselor. All three make up the Godhead but it is God the Father whom we worship.

The LDS do not worship Jesus Christ but believe Him to be the Son of God, the Messiah, the Redeemer, without whom we could never return to live with our Father in Heaven. We do as he has taught us to do in the scripture to pray unto the Father in His name. It is the Father that we worship.

If you have found some LDS that worship Jesus Christ, it may be that they worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind but not as God the Father. We do not pray to Jesus but we pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ.

[LittleWyvern]

Originally Posted by a-train

Jesus IS God. There are many verses which say so. The most prominent is the first page of the Book of Mormon which says plainly that the purpose of the Book of Mormon is "the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God".

What?!? The purpose of Mormonism is to convince people that Jesus is God?!?!?!? YES.

Ah. I don't use Christ and God interchangeably, but I see your point. Thanks.

[Maxel]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Yes, I'm sure that staying monotheist was a huge anchor in the early efforts to define God's nature. The most serious heresy in pentecostalism arose out of an even more fervent desire to do so--Oneness Pentecostals insist that God is one essence and one person--but three modes, or roles.

That helps a lot- thanks!

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Interestingly, in my three years here I've seen a few LDS hold on to monotheism (Dr. Robinson, from the How Wide the Divide book, is a good example), but others embrace the middle ground of henotheism (many gods exist, but we worship only one), and some others simply say...yes we are ultimately polytheists, since we believe we will become Gods ourselves.

I'm not surprised that different Mormons believe differently about mono/polytheism. Personally, I believe we're monotheists because we believe all the power that Christ and the Holy Ghost possess originated in, and is still supported by, the Father. Therefore, we come unto the Father through Christ, who is our mediator. It is in this way, I think, that we are able to maintain monotheism.

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

For the early church Christians, and for many of us today, monotheism is one of those few anchors that helps us feel theologically safe--particularly since, unlike your own church, in Protestantism there are differences of belief about important (though secondary) doctrines.

That makes sense; I never thought about it in that light before.

I do appreciate you making this post and helping us learn more about the Trinity!