Changing the World Now... Calvinism

[Giant_Son]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

No need for you to guess, LM, I'll be glad to share my thoughts on the matter. Daniel Peterson made a highly inflammatory statement and got called out on it. So what does he do (in the quote you provided)? He throws out an outrageous strawman ("God doesn't like the Chinese") and then follows up with an assertion of his seemingly perpetual victimhood ("a weapon against me"). I'll leave it to fans of FAIR/MA&DB to decide if there's any pattern here...

--Erik

Calvinism doesn't make any sense to me (in light of Christ's message of commandments of faith, repentance, baptism, etc.) and seems to erase personal responsibility - two things that are sacred (commandments and free agency) to Mormons.

[Giant_Son]

Calvinism is not believed by most Christians today and the arguments are very convincing. Why do you believe in the 4.5 points of Calvinism?

[AnthonyB]

Giant,

I'm not personally a Calvinist but its proponents generally think it maintains God's sovereignty and that he gets the maximum glory from their scheme. Read Rom 9, it is the great "proof" text of Calvinism.

[ErikJohnson]

Originally Posted by Giant_Son

Calvinism doesn't make any sense to me (in light of Christ's message of commandments of faith, repentance, baptism, etc.) and seems to erase personal responsibility - two things that are sacred (commandments and free agency) to Mormons.

The link I provided under "Five Points" in my OP may be of use to you, Giant_Son. It's to an article by John Piper (who is also mentioned in the TIME Magazine article). Reformed theology certainly doesn't "erase personal responsibility." The fact of a Sovereign God doesn't relieve anyone of their duty, or their accountability for thought, word, and deed. It's useful to remember that while God wills the ends, He also wills the means to the ends.
What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

Did anyone actually read the TIME article and have thoughts on it?

--Erik

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

The link I provided under "Five Points" in my OP may be of use to you, Giant_Son. It's to an article by John Piper (who is also mentioned in the TIME Magazine article). Reformed theology certainly doesn't "erase personal responsibility." The fact of a Sovereign God doesn't relieve anyone of their duty, or their accountability for thought, word, and deed. It's useful to remember that while God wills the ends, He also wills the means to the ends.
What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

Did anyone actually read the TIME article and have thoughts on it?

--Erik

I had to endure a week of John MacAurthur speaking about it on Christian radio. I'm all 5-Point Calvinisted out.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

Did anyone actually read the TIME article and have thoughts on it?

--Erik

I read it. I don't have a thought - rather a question. Is the article correct that Calvinism holds that God orchestrates everything? Even serial killing and child-molesting?

[AnthonyB]

Erik,

From the article...

"These five points are still at the heart of Biblical theology."

Sort of presumes that no body but calvinists have a biblical theology, I think of "a" biblical theology or calvinistic bible theology would show a little more humility.

As for the role call of great Calvinists, I think I could muster a role of great Arminianists to match. Matching the respective teams, you'd have Wesley to Whitefield, Booth to Mueller, Moody to Spurgeon I shan't continue but you get the idea. (I don't know who to place on Augustine but then I would struggle to find a Calvinists to play against Smith Wigglesworth (Gotta include someone from PC's mob in the Arminian team line-up, given the numbers there adding to the Arminian side, but there just isn't a lot of Calvinist miracle workers\evanglelists to choose from and no.... the Calvinists can't draft Paul.)

The following is a personal observation and I'm happy to be corrected.
I sometimes feel when reading Calvinist material that they find it inconceivable that anyone of good will, intellect and spiritual integrity could take a contrary veiw of theology. Yet as I listed above any number of what I consider great man of God have differed on these issues.

[Faded]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

Instead, I simply want to know what folks here think about this increasingly influential trend in Evangelical Christianity and in the world at large. Are you indifferent? Are you concerned? Do you think this is the kind of “change” the world needs now?

LDS Apologist and BYU professor Daniel C. Peterson is on record using some remarkably blunt language against Calvinism. Sparing his readers any diplomatic pretense, Peterson wrote, "Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: I regard Calvinism as repulsive, its morality disgusting, and its teaching about God as blasphemous." (If you like, you can dig up his views on Calvinism, among many other subjects, on the Mormon Apologetics & Discussion Board.)

Do folks here share Peterson’s abhorrence of Reformed theology, or do you think his comments were over the top?

Erik, I think that other responders have adequately covered the matter of your taking Professor Peterson's comments greatly out of context. Do Latter Day Saints believe in many of the advances and teachings of the Reformation? Yes. Do we unquestioningly accept all of those teachings the Reformers came up with? No. When it comes to John Calvin, it is his teaching of predestination that we disagree with. It is not to say that John Calvin did not do a lot of good things. Without him, Martin Luther, John Hus, and a long list of others, the Restoration through Joseph Smith would not have been made possible.

I can promise you that if any group of Latter Day Saints were to organize themselves to target and attack other religions (which is EXACTLY what anti-Mormon elements do withing Protestant faiths) then the General Authorities would see to shutting it down, post-haste.

There is the saying, "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones." Anti-Mormon hate propaganda gives absolutely no heed to that bit of wisdom, and consistently places the LDS religion into question. Each of those types of questions, if redirected at the rest of Christian faiths, could not be adequately answered by any of them either. But we do not return fire as a matter of principal. Every Christian faith has a history that could be thrown under microscope and picked apart but apparently it is only popular to do so to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

This hate mongering is not God's will. He intends for all those who follow him, Catholic, Latter Day Saint, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc. to get along, work together for good, and not act like spoiled children fighting over the same toy.

Lastly, if you as a Latter-Day Saint were intending to proselytize to a committed, Bible-believing Christian—how might you modify your approach if you knew that person was Reformed?

No modification would be required. We view the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of all the faith and hard work on the part of Christians for these many centuries. What we have received completes what was received before, it does not destroy it. We acknowledge that God works within every Christian denomination. We have received more information from God and simply ask all to come and see it.

In the interest of full disclosure, Mark Driscoll (mentioned in the Time article) is the preaching pastor at my Church, Mars Hill Church in Seattle. Also, I’m sending a link of this thread to my Mom, and a few others. So please be nice.
;0)

--Erik

Easily done. You do realize that you've failed to "play nice" on more than one occasion, right? I hope that is in the past now.

PS. If you are a Christian who leans toward Reformed theology (like me)"—are you planning to do anything to celebrate the 500 year anniversary of John Calvin’s birth this July? If so, what are your plans?

I may very well do something like that. What is the exact birth date?

[Faded]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

Did anyone actually read the TIME article and have thoughts on it?
--Erik

Yes I read it. Calvinist elements have been on the decline in recent decades, or so I've heard. Anything that would re-energize any Christian religion is good news. We live in times where far too many are turning their backs on religion altogether. We'll see how it all goes for them from here.

[Faded]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

No need for you to guess, LM, I'll be glad to share my thoughts on the matter. Daniel Peterson made a highly inflammatory statement and got called out on it. So what does he do (in the quote you provided)? He throws out an outrageous strawman ("God doesn't like the Chinese") and then follows up with an assertion of his seemingly perpetual victimhood ("a weapon against me"). I'll leave it to fans of FAIR/MA&DB to decide if there's any pattern here...

--Erik

I think that referencing Peterson at all was in extremely bad taste Erik. Here is why:
1.) You open a discussion about the upcoming 500th birthday of John Calvin, then you link the article talking about Calvinism going more Evangelical.
2.) Next you had to throw in a quote to demonstrate a complete non-truth. "You Mormons HATE Calvinism!! I have the quote to prove it RIGHT HERE!!" That's inflammatory and had absolutely nothing to do with the topic your were presenting.
3.) You leave the suggestion hanging there that all Mormons are religious bigots and expect it to not bother anyone.

If you can find all of the people who have ever said anything inflammatory about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and call on them to repent of their terrible behavior, you will seem a lot less hypocritical to me. You don't have to go digging for inflammatory comments from other faiths about us and you could spend the rest of your life trying to convince them to stop their unChristian behavior. There is so many of them and so much hateful propaganda against Mormonism that you'll never make a dent if you spent every waking hour of the rest of your life trying.

Matthew 7:3-5
[3] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[4] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[5] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

The Anti-Mormon organizations throughout all Christian religions have heaped up a mountain of inflammatory and hateful statements, yet most Christian faiths do nothing to discourage them. Can you forgive Brother Peterson for his small mole-hill of similar statements, while not treating the Anti-Mormons with the same sense of zealous indignation?

I think the grown up thing to do would be to delete the remarks, and continue with the discussion. Poisoning the discussion from the start is very bad form.