Changing the World Now... Calvinism

[Giant_Son]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

The link I provided under "Five Points" in my OP may be of use to you, Giant_Son. It's to an article by John Piper (who is also mentioned in the TIME Magazine article). Reformed theology certainly doesn't "erase personal responsibility." The fact of a Sovereign God doesn't relieve anyone of their duty, or their accountability for thought, word, and deed. It's useful to remember that while God wills the ends, He also wills the means to the ends.
What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

Did anyone actually read the TIME article and have thoughts on it?

--Erik

Erik, I'll read your link. In the article, it says, "a rock-stead deity that orchestrates everything ..." Does "everything" include our words, thoughts, and actions? Thanks for the additional link explaining more about Calvinism. I'm always interested in learning more about what others believe.

[Snow]

Eric,

Could you address post number 16?

[ErikJohnson]

Originally Posted by Snow

I read it. I don't have a thought - rather a question. Is the article correct that Calvinism holds that God orchestrates everything? Even serial killing and child-molesting?

Good question. The short answer is that God is in control and He wills ALL actions, including sinful acts. Yet God does not sin.

For a more complete explanation, I'd turn again to John Piper--"Are There Two Wills in God?" Are There Two Wills in God? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

There’s a reason Piper gets a mention in a secular magazine’s top ten list—you'll find he's a pretty thoughtful guy. Scroll down to "How Extensive Is the Sovereign Will of God?" if you don't want to read the whole thing.

An excerpt--

There are passages that ascribe to God the final control over all calamities and disasters wrought by nature or by man. Amos 3:6, "Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it? Isaiah 45:7, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things." Lamentations 3:37-38, "Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?" Noteworthy in these texts is that the calamities in view involve human hostilities and cruelties that God would disapprove of even as he wills that they be.

BTW, if you find this troubling, consider the alternative--a God who is not in control, a spectator who must await the outcome of human initiative and/or submit to other forces. Would such a being be worthy of worship?

--Erik

[Giant_Son]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

Good question. The short answer is that God is in control and He wills ALL actions, including sinful acts. Yet God does not sin.

For a more complete explanation, I'd turn again to John Piper--"Are There Two Wills in God?" Are There Two Wills in God? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

There’s a reason Piper gets a mention in a secular magazine’s top ten list—you'll find he's a pretty thoughtful guy. Scroll down to "How Extensive Is the Sovereign Will of God?" if you don't want to read the whole thing.

An excerpt--

There are passages that ascribe to God the final control over all calamities and disasters wrought by nature or by man. Amos 3:6, "Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it? Isaiah 45:7, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things." Lamentations 3:37-38, "Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?" Noteworthy in these texts is that the calamities in view involve human hostilities and cruelties that God would disapprove of even as he wills that they be.

BTW, if you find this troubling, consider the alternative--a God who is not in control, a spectator who must await the outcome of human initiative and/or submit to other forces. Would such a being be worthy of worship?

--Erik

Thanks for the reply, Erik. I disagree with your conclusions, but I like to hear why someone believes the way they do.

Another question: In your beliefs, can someone be elect and saved and not know it? Does someone have to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accept it to be saved?

[Snow]

Originally Posted by ErikJohnson

Good question. The short answer is that God is in control and He wills ALL actions, including sinful acts. Yet God does not sin.

For a more complete explanation, I'd turn again to John Piper--"Are There Two Wills in God?" Are There Two Wills in God? :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

There’s a reason Piper gets a mention in a secular magazine’s top ten list—you'll find he's a pretty thoughtful guy. Scroll down to "How Extensive Is the Sovereign Will of God?" if you don't want to read the whole thing.

An excerpt--

There are passages that ascribe to God the final control over all calamities and disasters wrought by nature or by man. Amos 3:6, "Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it? Isaiah 45:7, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things." Lamentations 3:37-38, "Who has commanded and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?" Noteworthy in these texts is that the calamities in view involve human hostilities and cruelties that God would disapprove of even as he wills that they be.

BTW, if you find this troubling, consider the alternative--a God who is not in control, a spectator who must await the outcome of human initiative and/or submit to other forces. Would such a being be worthy of worship?

--Erik

Thank you for the answer.

It's well and good to say that God wills serial killing and child abuse (for example) but God does not sin. But HOW is it that God wills evil into existence and will the commission of evil and yet is not evil.

God created reason for a reason. Can you explain it - hopefully without an appeal to mystery, which or course is not an answer.

[AnthonyB]

Here is an Arminian answer to post 25

Sovereignty and Free Will - Jack Cottrell

God's will is sovereign but man still has free will because man's free will only exists through the sovereign grant of God. So man is responsible for his choices but it is God who allowed those choices to be.

Do LDS actually believe in a sovereign God?

[Islander]

The term "sovereign" has been hijacked by the modern Christian "theologians" but the translations relates something else entirely.

It means "without owner, keeper or ruler." In the ancient world, pagan cultures could carry with you, bury, break, bribe, cajole, entice and manipulate their "gods" into doing ____________ "stuff" in exchange for a sacrifice, a gift, an offering or what have you. The GOD of the Hebrews was a sovereign GOD in the sense that those things could not be applied to HIM.

The doctrine of free will and the "sovereignty" of God is a fairly new abstraction. I think the debate is kind of obscure and unprofitable. There must be darkness as for the light to shine. We can darken the skies for days now by detonating high yield explosive and creating a dust cloud several miles wide. Is it the will of God that we do such things? Of course not. One sibling can be a life saving physician and the other a mass murderer.

God created the universe and what we call discoveries are nothing but our feeble stride and insight into the vastness of the mind of God.

[AnthonyB]

Hopefully this isn’t too contentious, just some BoM quotes on the sovereignty of God. I got from reading that book on my way to work this morning….

Mosiah 4:9 Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend.

Mosiah 5:2 …because the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent…

Mosiah 5:15 …that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent,….of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all.

[ErikJohnson]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

Here is an Arminian answer to post 25

Sovereignty and Free Will - Jack Cottrell

God's will is sovereign but man still has free will because man's free will only exists through the sovereign grant of God. So man is responsible for his choices but it is God who allowed those choices to be.

Do LDS actually believe in a sovereign God?

Appreciate the link, AnthonyB. And I realize you probably put it out there as an illustration, and not necessarily to defend and discuss. Nonetheless, I think it's worthy of some comment. If I were to offer a criticism of Cottrell’s approach, it would be that he makes no effort to substantiate his positions with Scripture. And if I were on the other side of the discussion, I would probably not have picked this particular essay. Cottrell’s apparent lack of need for Scripture in support of his theological conclusions may serve to give readers new to the subject the wrong impression about Arminians and the basis of their position on God's Sovereignty and human will. (He does make a reference to Ephesians 1:11—but only to say the verse may be taken as something other than face value.)

Many of the Arminian persuasion do take their Bible seriously, of course, and make full use of it in their theological writings. (Elsewhere Cottrell might too—I’m just not familiar.) And far be it from me to suggest that those of us who lean Reformed have nothing to learn from our Christian brothers and sisters who follow in the Wesley/Methodist tradition, for example.

But in my opinion, Cottrell’s idea of a self-imposed limitation by God (in order to preserve human free will) comes undone when you consider the hardening work of God in the case of the Pharaoh, as found in Exodus (and Romans 9), as well as other examples (Deuteronomy 2:30, Joshua 11:19-20, Romans 11:7-9). As a side-note, God’s hardening work as revealed in Scripture wreaks havoc on LDS teaching. Recognizing the text presented an intractable problem, Joseph Smith went so far as to re-write portions of Exodus to preserve Pharaoh’s “free agency” in his so-called translation.

By contrast, when you read Piper’s writing on God’s Sovereignty, you see he takes real pains to align his thinking with the testimony of Scripture. References abound. The reader isn’t left in any doubt that the Bible is the basis for his theology (even though some will contest his understanding of particular passages and reasonably challenge his conclusions). And for that reason, I find Piper’s work compelling (though I have no affiliation with Bethlehem Baptist).

I’ll note here that one of the hallmarks of Reformed Protestantism is its high view of Scripture (and it’s one of the things I find hugely appealing, personally). No one ever had to wonder whose side the Calvinists were going to take in the SBC’s biblical inerrancy battles. As a side-note, the outcome of that struggle (and the role played by those who were Reformed) was covered in Christianity Today. It’s quite interesting, and relevant to our broader topic—Young, Restless, Reformed - Christianity Today magazine - ChristianityTodayLibrary.com

All that said, I hope LDS will give them both (Piper and Cottrell) a read and due consideration (starting with Piper, of course).
;0)

And I’m interested in how LDS will respond to your question—it’s a good one. God willing, we’ll get something more than special definitions and an assertion that the subject isn't "profitable." God willing, of course…

--Erik

[AnthonyB]

Erik,

Did you read the last paragraph...

"The final answer must come from the revealed Scriptures. Only there may we learn whether man actually does have free will, and whether God actually is the Sovereign Lord."

I'll attempt to find an article that is choc-a-block full of scriptures for you.

But I am interested in the LDS answers.