Do "Born again" Churches Seriously Believe This?!

[Carl62]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Carl, first, me thinks the 70 billion # is probably 7 billion--there are less than 7 billion people today, and a century ago there was less than a billion...so we are far from 70B. Nevertheless, what really drives your outrage? What if only a half dozen souls were to literally burn in a fiery hell for eternity? You either believe in God's justice or you don't. You can thank God for redeeming those who does, or curse him for the ones He doesn't. Jesus said He's the only Way, the only Truth, the only Life--that no one comes to the Father, but by Him. So Carl62, which part of John 14:6 are you contending with?

Outrage?! Contend?! I thinking you're waaay over reacting just a bit there my friend. I merely asked a simple question that I was curious about. Nothing more, nothing less. Wow, I can't believe how I'm getting about half ridiculed and ganged up on just because of some question. I think some people on here need to simply calm down and relax!

[prisonchaplain]

Carl62, it was the bold-typed title that caused me to "over-read" your tone. Usually when I ask someone "Do you seriously believe that?" The implication is that I'm astounded at the person's foolishness or maliciousness. Nevertheless, I answered your question. And, btw, it was a legitimate one. Many people are angry at God over hell--or they are angry at Christians who believe such.

BTW you were right about the population...mea culpa. peopleandplanet.net > population pressures > factfile > how many people have ever lived on earth?

[Galatians220]

Originally Posted by Carl62

Outrage?! Contend?! I thinking you're waaay over reacting just a bit there my friend. I merely asked a simple question that I was curious about. Nothing more, nothing less. Wow, I can't believe how I'm getting about half ridiculed and ganged up on just because of some question. I think some people on here need to simply calm down and relax!

I agree with PrisonChaplain, there's no mis-understanding of the tone you set on your post; some of your statements were in CAPS and loaded with Exclamation marks. The topic of Hell is a very contentious one to the unbelieving so I myself have taken your post as one of outrage.

[Carl62]

I think I need to clarify that when I bold typed the sentence which said of the 35 billion people, I was saying that more out of astonishment then I was anger or outrage. As a matter of fact, not only am I not angry, I'm happy to be a part of a church that believes and teaches that the majority of people, regardless of denomination, will go to a better place after this life (which always made sense to me) as opposed to other churches which teach the opposite. The reason again, I put that one particular statement in caps is because I don't think a lot of churches are fully aware of what they're teaching or believing in regards to the astronomical number of people who they say will not go to heaven but instead a fiery place forever and ever. I'm just wondering still, with the knowledge of those numbers, can people of the "born again" denominations still honestly say that is what they truly believe? It just blows my mind if that is the case. No anger. No malice. Just glad to be a part of the Lord's church and His teachings (especially regarding the afterlife).

[thews]

Originally Posted by Carl62

I got to thinking the other day about something I heard at a fireside a number of years ago when a General Authority said that from the time of Christ 'til now, approximately 70 billion people will have inhabited the earth. That figure of 70 billion stuck in my head after that talk and what I was wondering is do the Christian religions who teach that unless you accept Jesus as your personal Savior you will really go to an everlasting, literal burning lake of fire where you will be tortured day and night forever and ever? When you think of that figure of 70 billion, can you honestly say AT LEAST HALF of those people will be in such a fiery state, especially since most "born again" style religions teach that the majority will NOT make heaven? DOES THIS MEAN THAT WELL OVER 35 BILLION PEOPLE WILL BE BURNING FOREVER AND EVER???!!!! That's over 5x our earth's total population right now!!! I cannot possibly fathom such a thing as that!!! Also, are all these people in the center of the earth right now, according to what most Christian churches teach? What about the people that lived for 4,000 years before the time of Christ where nothing about a lake a fire was ever taught in the Old Testament? Are they in for a fiery surprise when they die? Just honestly trying to understand all of this. Thanks.

Well, if people from 0 Ad to 1820+ were deprived of God's word. where do they land? How can one be judged if they didn't know?

[Carl62]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Carl, first, me thinks the 70 billion # is probably 7 billion--there are less than 7 billion people today, and a century ago there was less than a billion...so we are far from 70B. Nevertheless, what really drives your outrage? What if only a half dozen souls were to literally burn in a fiery hell for eternity? You either believe in God's justice or you don't. You can thank God for redeeming those who does, or curse him for the ones He doesn't. Jesus said He's the only Way, the only Truth, the only Life--that no one comes to the Father, but by Him. So Carl62, which part of John 14:6 are you contending with?

If this is what you're referring to as 'answering my question' well umm, you start off by questioning my numbers (which you later corrected in a following post so that's o.k.) But as far as answering the rest of it: 1) I wasn't outraged, and I apologize if it came across that way, 2) If the real answer was just a half a dozen people and those people were Stalin, Hussein, Hitler, Pol Pot, Nero, Mussolini and, ah what the heck, throw in the 19 terrorist who brutally killed 3,000 on 9/11 for good measure and with those people, I honestly wouldn't care. Not my kind and caring neighbor who has helped me in times of dire straits and turmulous problems who maybe happens to be a Buddhist. 3) No contention with John 14:6 whatsoever. That's why we have the beautiful doctrine of baptism for the dead. All the pieces to this churches puzzle seem to connect which allows for everybody to be given the chance to accept or reject the gospel and eventually return to live with their Heavenly Father.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Carl62

I think I need to clarify that when I bold typed the sentence which said of the 35 billion people, I was saying that more out of astonishment then I was anger or outrage. As a matter of fact, not only am I not angry, I'm happy to be a part of a church that believes and teaches that the majority of people, regardless of denomination, will go to a better place after this life (which always made sense to me) as opposed to other churches which teach the opposite. The reason again, I put that one particular statement in caps is because I don't think a lot of churches are fully aware of what they're teaching or believing in regards to the astronomical number of people who they say will not go to heaven but instead a fiery place forever and ever.

Carl, I can accept that you are astonished, rather than angry. But why is it that you feel so? Because we don't know what we believe and are saying??? The implication is that we are ignorant.

In a minor sense you are correct. I did not realize that 70 billion people have lived on Earth. My guess would have been substantially lower. On the other hand, I know full well what I believe and teach: Those who die without reconciling with God will burn forever in the torments of hell. And, the number of those that do is likely to be substantial.

Carl, we know this. We are not ignorant of the basic bottom line. We've...

1. Written books about it: Dante's Inferno
2. Preached sermons about it: Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God
3. Made movies about it: Left Behind
4. Sung songs about it: People Need the Lord
5. And some have formed heretical sects in rebellion against it: I'm told that what started Charles Taze Russell's disenchantment with the Christian churches of his day was the doctrine of hell. He challenged God saying that if he could not disprove hell he would not believe God.

I'm just wondering still, with the knowledge of those numbers, can people of the "born again" denominations still honestly say that is what they truly believe? It just blows my mind if that is the case. No anger. No malice. Just glad to be a part of the Lord's church and His teachings (especially regarding the afterlife).

And the answer is still yes. God is still God, whether he judges 3.5 billion or 35 billion. Sin and rebellion must be answered for. God is love, but He is also just. Rebellion cannot stand in the eternal kingdom. Look what just 6000 years of it has done to Earth.

In a post modern society, with no absolutes, the doctrine of hell is especially offensive to the lost. After all, if there is no law, there is no standard by which sinners can recognize their state. Satan is clever indeed. So, when hell is mentioned, postmoderns say, "Punishment for what? I did what was right in my own eyes...what worked for me. Who is anyone--even God--to say otherwise?"

I do not enjoy the doctrine of hell. I do not appreciate it. But my Bible teaches it, and I believe the author of the Bible. He made us, He owns us, and He rightly judges us by his perfect, righteous and just ways. His punishments are perfect as well. Who am I to question him?

[thews]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

I do not enjoy the doctrine of hell. I do not appreciate it. But my Bible teaches it, and I believe the author of the Bible. He made us, He owns us, and He rightly judges us by his perfect, righteous and just ways. His punishments are perfect as well. Who am I to question him?

Can I ask you... do you believe in Hell? Can somoeone make such a big mistake, that they deserve being burned for all time and eternity? I'm not asking what you should believe, but what you do believe?


Don't you think God is a loving God?

[prisonchaplain]

3) No contention with John 14:6 whatsoever. That's why we have the beautiful doctrine of baptism for the dead. All the pieces to this churches puzzle seem to connect which allows for everybody to be given the chance to accept or reject the gospel and eventually return to live with their Heavenly Father.

If I'm not mistaken, the main sticking point here is whether or not those who did not know will be condemned to hell. sans the doctrine of the Baptism of the Dead[/i], my answer is, "God is just. He will do right. He will not wrongly judge anyone. On the day of judgment there will be no objections, no 'but Lord.' So, regardless of how we get there, we both agree that God will do justly.

That said, I understand that when a soul is baptized for, by proxy, she may accept or reject the sacrament. So, for the sake of argument, on the Day of Judgment, if you were to find out that 35 billion souls rejected their baptism for the dead, and refused to recognize that God had any say in their lives, and were thus cast into the outer darkness...would you then be okay with that?

If so, I'd merely suggest that my trusting God's justice, however it ends up looking, is the same kind of faith. I may not agree with the baptism of the dead sacrament--because I do not have a testimony of its veracity or authority--but I do believe that God will do right.

So...are you still astonished at my faith?

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by thews

Can I ask you... do you believe in Hell? Can somoeone make such a big mistake, that they deserve being burned for all time and eternity? I'm not asking what you should believe, but what you do believe?


Don't you think God is a loving God?

I believe that God is a loving and just Creator, who has created an eternal hell where rebellious souls will suffer and where "the worm dieth not." If I were forced to attempt to explain why God created such a place, I'd first say it was for the Devil and his minions, and secondly that those who would rebel against God commit an eternal rejection. They would destroy the heavenly kingdom with their sin. Such blatant rebellion against the Creator, whether by a mass murdering atheist like Stalin, or a self-righteous Pharisee who would cheer the Son of God's crucifixion, such is worthy of eternal death.

LDS theology on this matter is certainly "kinder and gentler." It seems fairer. But, if it's not accurate, if it does not correctly reflect God's plan of salvation, than the teaching could lull sinners into a false sense of security. So, I opt for the teaching that I find in my Bible, rather than the one I find more attractive.