Do "Born again" Churches Seriously Believe This?!

[prisonchaplain]

Dravin, thank you much. I decided to take a quick look. We've often discussed "born again," and it's in the title of this string. So, I looked it up, was directed to "Conversion," and found this: LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Conversion

It does not resolve the on-going conversation about the role of grace and works in our salvation, but it does present the LDS perspective in a clear cut, intelligent, and authoritative way. Thanks.

[Dravin]

No problem. Its all part of my philosophy, if you throw up enough links the chances somebody will find something of interest increases.

I like True to the Faith, its handy for when people ask you questions for just the reasons you state, when people try to draw upon a life time of study and experience to answer things in their own words things can get convoluted pretty quick.

[Galatians220]

Originally Posted by Carl62

But what if some people in no way, shape or form ever do get to hear it? Suppose an 18 year old kid who lives in China and has only ever known Taoism his whole life goes out and gets killed in a car accident. Where, according to "born again" beliefs on heaven and hell, would he end up? I've even heard it said from many "born again" Protestants that somebody like Mother Teresa would end up burning forever in hell simply because she was Catholic! I guess it's this slightly narrow, black and white view of the Protestant heaven/hell that I'm trying to understand and am wondering what scriptural basis there is for it.

Hey Carl, I actually addressed that kind of question on the very first page of this thread listing scriptures to show that no one is without an excuse if they are given sufficient evidence to believe.

Mine is hard to miss because my words and scripture is colored

[anatess]

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

My issue with how many LDS express things is that, virutally everyone is saved and there isn't much cost to enter heaven. Your path to heaven can appear a wide and broad road that many can easily pass, whereas your path to hell is a narrow road that is exceeding difficult to enter. This comes across as reverse to Jesus' clear statement on the issue.

This is not what LDS believes. There is a very big cost to enter the highest glory of heaven. Maintaining a temple recommend is about one of the hardest things to do as a Christian. It is so hard that even physical witnesses to the Book of Mormon fell away from the church.

You and I may have a different understanding of what "saved" means. I'm a very logical person so I tend to split hairs with the way a word is used. If what you mean by "saved" is "resurrected", then yes, virtually everyone is saved. But, there is a lot more to it than that. Let's take Telestial glory for instance - the lowest degree of glory. Sure, it is better than earth. Satan is on earth but not in Telestial kingdom. But, you cannot live with the Father and the Son in the Telestial Kingdom. Is that not a hell of some kind? If I were to think of my own parents with the knowledge that I had a testimony that if I would just be obedient I could live with mom and dad through eternities and then because I was being an idiot and did not follow through I ended up apart from them for all time and eternity - that would be a big hell for me! So, does that mean I'm saved?

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

LDS appear to believe that people, if given enough time will eventually respond and accept God's mercy. Besides what appears to be a lack of NT support for such an idea, I have two objections. Firstly many people, despite God's clear invitation through scripture, nature and loving believers about them in this life, refuse God. I don't see why nearly everyone would change. if so may reject the message here, I find it hard to reconcile with a near universal acceptance, even if given enough time after death.

This is not true of LDS teachings either. Each and every person who has ever lived on earth have equal opportunity to hear the gospel and accept God's mercy. There's no such thing as "given enough time"... Nope. It's either you accept or you don't. The only difference is - LDS teaches that if you didn't get the opportunity to hear the truth on earth, you still have the opportunity to hear it after you pass through the veil of death.

Originally Posted by AnthonyB

Secondly entry to heaven (even if your lowest level exists) must require the absolute willingness to relinquish sin, a journey to on going holiness. LDS clearly have a much more positive of people then I do because in the world I live I think many would, like in Lewis' book, find excuses or small sins that they would not give up. A righteous God must either cure of us of all evil or the smallest evil will fester and painand suffering continue. Heaven cannot be held captive to the whim of some person to maintain even the smallest sin, to refuse to be cured of it and thus spread its evil and misery to others.

I think you need to read a bit more about the levels of glory. I gave an inkling of the Telestial kingdom (lowest kingdom) on the paragraph above.

[thews]

Originally Posted by anatess

This is not what LDS believes. There is a very big cost to enter the highest glory of heaven. Maintaining a temple recommend is about one of the hardest things to do as a Christian. It is so hard that even physical witnesses to the Book of Mormon fell away from the church.

You and I may have a different understanding of what "saved" means. I'm a very logical person so I tend to split hairs with the way a word is used. If what you mean by "saved" is "resurrected", then yes, virtually everyone is saved. But, there is a lot more to it than that. Let's take Telestial glory for instance - the lowest degree of glory. Sure, it is better than earth. Satan is on earth but not in Telestial kingdom. But, you cannot live with the Father and the Son in the Telestial Kingdom. Is that not a hell of some kind? If I were to think of my own parents with the knowledge that I had a testimony that if I would just be obedient I could live with mom and dad through eternities and then because I was being an idiot and did not follow through I ended up apart from them for all time and eternity - that would be a big hell for me! So, does that mean I'm saved?

I don't understand this. Are you saying the reward you'll get for being obidient is to attain a level of heaven where you'll get to be with your parents?

This is not true of LDS teachings either. Each and every person who has ever lived on earth have equal opportunity to hear the gospel and accept God's mercy. There's no such thing as "given enough time"... Nope. It's either you accept or you don't. The only difference is - LDS teaches that if you didn't get the opportunity to hear the truth on earth, you still have the opportunity to hear it after you pass through the veil of death.

OK, so I did hear it, I was baptized a Mormon and now I reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God. I am a Christian though, but I did get the opportunity... please explain what I can expect in the afterlife per LDS doctrine.

I think you need to read a bit more about the levels of glory. I gave an inkling of the Telestial kingdom (lowest kingdom) on the paragraph above.

The levels of glory were written in the late 1700's before Joseph Smith. Who should one read?

[anatess]

Originally Posted by thews

I don't understand this. Are you saying the reward you'll get for being obidient is to attain a level of heaven where you'll get to be with your parents?

That's not what I said. I'm making the comparison of living without our Heavenly Father in the celestial kingdom comparable to not living with my own beloved father here on earth. I love my dad very much and I cannot imagine not being with him. How much more for living without my Heavenly Father in the eternities?

Originally Posted by thews

OK, so I did hear it, I was baptized a Mormon and now I reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God. I am a Christian though, but I did get the opportunity... please explain what I can expect in the afterlife per LDS doctrine.

Ayayay. That may have been your opportunity Thews because you were baptized. It would be different if you were taught by the missionaries or something and never gained a testimony enough to be baptized. You may still have the opportunity to be baptized in the after-life.

But then, it could be that you never really gained a testimony when you were a member of the church. Only you can answer that.

I'm not in a position to judge though. None of us are. So, we really never know.

Originally Posted by thews

The levels of glory were written in the late 1700's before Joseph Smith. Who should one read?

I started here.

[FunkyTown]

Originally Posted by thews

OK, so I did hear it, I was baptized a Mormon and now I reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God. I am a Christian though, but I did get the opportunity... please explain what I can expect in the afterlife per LDS doctrine.

Thews? If you reject Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, then obviously anything he says holds no weight. May I ask what difference it makes whether Celestial, Telestial or Terrestrial you will be granted? If you don't believe he was a prophet, then you believe that what he preached was wrong. If what he preached was wrong, then the only reason to find out what he preached with regards to you is to stir up contention because you want to fight about it.

Unless you're actually just going through a crisis of faith and are worried. If that's the case, just let us know. It 'feels' much more like a search for contention, though.