The LDS view of ex-Mormons who become Christian

[lattelady]

He was referring to Thews who, while still a member of the church could be compared to an eagle--soaring above. Now that he has walked away from the church, he is "lowering himself" to the standards of the chickens (unenlightened, walking around in the darkness). I'm not sure if you noticed, but Thews felt mocked by the comment. Would you consider his comment to be kind?

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by thews

I'm getting all the ducks in a row before I send off my resignation letter, but this is one I can't find an answer to.

What "ducks" do you want to have in a row? Are you pulling together a coherent and thorough explanation of why you're leaving?

If so, I have a bit of advice based on my own experience and others who have left the Church. Right now, none of your family is going to be interested in why you left the Church. They're going to be in panic mode because they believe you are giving up all of the blessings the gospel gives you. All they're going to be thinking about is how to get you to come back.

I know it would be nice if your family would be open to listening to the reasons you're leaving, but realistically that's not something they can do right now. In fact, once they realize they're not going to change your mind, they are going to go into mourning for you, and IMO, the kindest thing you could do is let them.

It is extremely important to let them know you still love them as much as you ever did, and that you respect their beliefs. Eventually, after some time has passed, you can explain why you don't share them if you want.

If what I say describes your situation, my advice is to just send in your letter with no explanation, and explain to your family you have decided to leave, and will answer their questions, but that you won't defend your decision to them, at least not right now.

You have time to give them. Once they realize that you're serious about your decision, most of them will come to accept it, though they won't like it. But they get to not like it.

By the way, you are going to get a lot of "you're "choosing" to leave the Church. You've already read it here. Frankly, I have yet to find a way to explain my leaving is not a "choice." I can't make myself believe something I don't believe in. But I've come to understand, like I wrote above, their heartache is based on their love for me. I've learned to let this one go.

If I'm all wrong about this, just excuse an old tired lady and her ramblings.

Elphaba

[thews]

Originally Posted by Dravin

Yes they do, as Mormons are Christians and they believe Joseph Smith is a prophet then there are Christians who believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. Now admittedly not all Christians, it is limited to a rather specific subset. You seem to be suggesting that because somebody who believes Joseph Smith was a prophet is Mormon they cannot also be Christian, this is much like saying because my car is a Tercel it cannot also be a Toyota.

You can call yourself what you wish, but if you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, by definition it would make you a Mormon. Differences in doctrine are vast, and it's the doctrine that defines one's beliefs. I find that LDS members that choose to answer the question "Christian" when asked about their faith, are really trying to distance themselves from Joseph Smith. A "Mormon" believes Joseph Smith wasa prophet of God, accepts the Book of Mormon, BOA, POP etc., and all the sealings, and temple rituals that are exclusive to Mormonism. You could argue that because Catholics use rosary beads it would be the same thing (difference), but I would contend the doctrine is what defines "Christian" religions, as all "Christian" religions reject Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.

Yes the belief in the divinity and teachings of Jesus Christ, this distinction does not exist between Catholics, Baptists, Anglicans or Mormons.

Well, let's see what the Mormon prophets said of Christianity:

Quotes by LDS Leaders

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:230).

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199);

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255).

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (President Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith , Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

"no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Brigham Young , Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

Pay particular attention to 1 a, note the lack of any mention of a disbelief in Joseph Smith in the definition. We could use b 2 or b 3 or even 2 but that would exclude a lot of people generally considered Christians, if that is your definition I suppose Mormons don't fall under it but I'm guessing neither do you. Oh well, at least you aren't running the risk of using a new argument, the I'm the real Christian and you aren't game has some years behind it.

Why are Mormons ashamed to be called Mormons?

[thews]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

What "ducks" do you want to have in a row? Are you pulling together a coherent and thorough explanation of why you're leaving?

If so, I have a bit of advice based on my own experience and others who have left the Church. Right now, none of your family is going to be interested in why you left the Church. They're going to be in panic mode because they believe you are giving up all of the blessings the gospel gives you. All they're going to be thinking about is how to get you to come back.

I know it would be nice if your family would be open to listening to the reasons you're leaving, but realistically that's not something they can do right now. In fact, once they realize they're not going to change your mind, they are going to go into mourning for you, and IMO, the kindest thing you could do is let them.

It is extremely important to let them know you still love them as much as you ever did, and that you respect their beliefs. Eventually, after some time has passed, you can explain why you don't share them if you want.

If what I say describes your situation, my advice is to just send in your letter with no explanation, and explain to your family you have decided to leave, and will answer their questions, but that you won't defend your decision to them, at least not right now.

You have time to give them. Once they realize that you're serious about your decision, most of them will come to accept it, though they won't like it. But they get to not like it.

By the way, you are going to get a lot of "you're "choosing" to leave the Church. You've already read it here. Frankly, I have yet to find a way to explain my leaving is not a "choice." I can't make myself believe something I don't believe in. But I've come to understand, like I wrote above, their heartache is based on their love for me. I've learned to let this one go.

If I'm all wrong about this, just excuse an old tired lady and her ramblings.

Elphaba

Thank you for this post. I have no doubt or reservations about this decision, but I was hoping there could be comfort found in telling them that while our beliefs differ, because I am a Christian and accept Jesus Christ I will not be damned, which is why I asked this question.

In the last conversation I had with my father, I had this letted penned and ready to send out. He advised me not to send it for fear of what it would cause within the family. My father was a ex-Mormon as well, but while he didn't asked me to never submit it, he advised me not to then. I see this as a statement to where I place my faith, and it's something I want to do. As near as I can tell by the quoted by BY in the previous post, I will be damned by the LDS version of God for rejecting Joseph Smith while being commited to Jesus Christ, mainly because there was a time I did accpt Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.

Thank you again for this most... it's been post helpful.

[Generally_Me]

Thews,
Mormons don't believe in traditional hell, so you will not be damned. Depending on how you live, you have a good chance at Telestial. Perhaps your father thought the way you wrote your letter would upset the family, as you have noticed the last several days there are quite a few people here who have gotten annoyed/riled up with the way you have occasionally presented your thoughts and our beliefs. I don't want you to think I am angry, because I am not, but if you approach your family the way you have approached subjects here, there will possibly be some anger. BUT, unless there is something more going on, they are your family and will love you anyway. May think you are lost from Celestial glory, but love you anyway.

[Misshalfway]

You know, if this is the decision you want to make and you are confident that your path is a true one, then it is irrelevant what the LDS prophets have said on the matter.

I was thinking about a BofM scripture in 2 nephi where it says "...hearken unto these words and Believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ..."

It sounds to me that this what you are trying to do. You can't believe in the BofM but you can believe in Christ. And that is good.

[thews]

Originally Posted by Generally_Me

Thews,
Mormons don't believe in traditional hell, so you will not be damned. Depending on how you live, you have a good chance at Telestial. Perhaps your father thought the way you wrote your letter would upset the family, as you have noticed the last several days there are quite a few people here who have gotten annoyed/riled up with the way you have occasionally presented your thoughts and our beliefs. I don't want you to think I am angry, because I am not, but if you approach your family the way you have approached subjects here, there will possibly be some anger. BUT, unless there is something more going on, they are your family and will love you anyway. May think you are lost from Celestial glory, but love you anyway.

I appreciate your honest replies and have learned much from you all. I understand we differ on what we believe, but we both have a right to believe it without getting feathers all ruffled. You have helped me a great deal and I do appreciate it.

For the record I don't believe in hell. I just find it hard to believe that a loving God would hold us accountable for the "right" decision, when we weren't given the rules. We can choose many things, one of them being to not believe in God. What would that prove to the soul? IMO it would prove to the soul what life is like without God ...that's hell to me. So, I don't believe atheists go to hell, not people that do horrible things. The "hell" IMO is the knowledge of evil, which exists here, but not on the other side. Evil done with intent is different than evil done because one didn't know enough to avoid it.

I realize this logic is not yours, but it is what I've concluded. My 20 year old daughter died last April. She survived bone cancer at 15, lukemia at 18, and lived to be 20. I got an extra 5 years with her, so my "please God" wish (if you want to call it that, was answered 3 times (she went into remission on 3 different occasions). When she died, I died with her, and I was there when she passed. I was sitting on her hospital bed praying with her about 10:00. She was unconscious and I held her hand and prayed with her. I put her hands back under the covers and just started talking to her. I told her that if the time came, she would decide when to go. I told her I felt she could hear me, and not to be scared. I then told her that if her death experience was anything like my near death experience, she would just know beofre I would, but I'd eventually be there too. He hand moved and I clutched it, and she died seconds later. I brought my baby girl into this world and I also was there when she left. She was and is a beautiful soul. The point of me telling you this s because I had to decide what it was I believed and why. Life is a lesson to the soul and we can't know why right now. The knowledge of good and evil includes both. JMHO

[Dravin]

You can call yourself what you wish, but if you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, by definition it would make you a Mormon.

Yes and if you believe in the divinity and teachings of Jesus Christ you are Christian. Ergo, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are Mormon Christians. This concept that multiple labels can apply to something seems to be giving you difficulty. A Fuji apple is both a Fuji, an apple, a fruit and food, see how that works?

as all "Christian" religions reject Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.

Aside: What is with the quotes around Christian? If you are trying to imply mainstream Christian by using them just say so, actually if you'd just said Mormon's aren't mainstream Christians this conversation never would have happened.

Except they don't, just most of them. Just like most Christian religions reject the Pope, but that doesn't make rejection of the Pope a defining characteristic of being Christian. You argument appears to consist of... I'm not sure if you are begging the question (could be wrong with this, begging the question always gives me troubles): Mormons aren't Christian because rejection of Joseph Smith is a requirement of Christianity because Mormons don't and they aren't Christian, or no true Scotsman: All true Christians reject Joseph Smith. But wait, Mormons don't! Well... Mormons aren't true Christians. Maybe its both.

As far as the quotes, none of them are teaching that we don't believe in the teachings or divinity of Jesus Christ. None of them even try to touch what the dictionary definition of a Christian is. There is some attempt to segregate between the 'Christian world' (aka mainstream Christianity, notice the use of adjectives here and quotes to indicate non-literal or non-standard definitions?) and themselves but considering the historical context that is understandable, but none of those are doctrinal statements that Mormon's aren't Christians, or that the definition of Christian includes not believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet. If anything a couple of them can be read the other way, that the rest of Christianity aren't 'true' Christians (told you it isn't a new sentiment), though they aren't statements of doctrine. The doctrine of the Church is not that Anglicans (for example) are not Christian.

If you are trying to point out that some LDS Leadership has said things that can be taken as offensive themselves, well, I never considered that a point of debate. If nothing else Bruce R. McConkie and Brigham Young themselves seal the deal on that (and Brigham Young liked to offend Mormons as well, as did J. Golden Kimball) without digging any deeper.

Why are Mormons ashamed to be called Mormons?

Tell me, if a Greek Orthodox tells somebody he is Christian is he ashamed of being, or being called Greek Orthodox? Mormons aren't ashamed to be called Mormons, they just by and large get irked when they are told they don't believe in the teachings and divinity of Jesus Christ which is what you are saying when you say they aren't Christian. Kinda like how I expect most Catholics (or any other Christian denomination) would react if you accused them of not believing in Jesus.

If you mean why do some people just respond with Christian instead of specifying denomination? Probably for some of the same reasons Christians of other denominations respond with a generic Christian instead of a more specific Anglican, Baptist or Catholic , they may not feel the distinction is germane (both replies are equally true though one does communicate more information than the other) to the topic and moment. They could also be trying to avoid conflict, some people like to argue about religion and some don't, if they don't like to argue about it they'll probably go with the (true and correct) answer that results in less of a chance of arguement.

Additionally if somebody is really curious they'll generally ask what kind and then you get the opportunity to specify. You also get situations where people ask the question you respond with LDS and they respond with, "Oh, I'm Christian." Depending on tone a lot of LDS would take that as an implication that they aren't, for some reason many Mormons are under the impression that others don't consider them Christian, I can't imagine... (reads thread) Oh, I guess I can imagine why they'd be under that impression. Many times by offering Christian as a response somebody who is curious will then ask for a denomination, allowing the member in question to communicate they are Mormon, who is a type of Christian in a more natural way than just blurting out, "I'm Mormon, and we're Christian!"

I kinda find it amusing that somebody engaged in accusing Mormons of not being Christian finds it confusing why those Mormons might take a conversational route that allows them to correct that misrepresentation.

By the way, you are going to get a lot of "you're "choosing" to leave the Church. You've already read it here. Frankly, I have yet to find a way to explain my leaving is not a "choice." I can't make myself believe something I don't believe in. But I've come to understand, like I wrote above, their heartache is based on their love for me. I've learned to let this one go.

He is choosing. One may make the argument that no longer believing wasn't a choice (not going to debate that one), but divesting yourself of what you see as an organization that isn't true (or more harshly, an organization teaching untruths) is a choice (likewise staying is a choice). Seen in that light not only is it a choice (leaving) its a logical and down right reasonable one, of course not everyone sees the Church that way.

[thews]

Originally Posted by Dravin

Yes and if you believe in the divinity and teachings of Jesus Christ you are Christian. Ergo, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are Mormon Christians. This concept that multiple labels can apply to something seems to be giving you difficulty. A Fuji apple is both a Fuji, an apple, a fruit and food, see how that works?

No I don't. This wordplay is attempting to define what "Christian" encompasses. If I, as a Christian, were to call myself a "Christian-Jew," it would be forcing Jews to accept doctrine they don't believe in. I'm not denying that Mormonism has roots in Christianity, but a "Mormon" is someone who believes Joseph Smith was in fact a prophet of God and accepts the "Mormon" doctrine. This "multiple labels" is watering down what it is to be Mormon IMO and what it encompasses.

Mormon = Belief in Joseph Smith
Christian = Belief that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God

Again, it's less about what a "Christian" is, and more about what defines one's belief as "Mormon" and what doctrine that encompasses.

Aside: What is with the quotes around Christian? If you are trying to imply mainstream Christian by using them just say so, actually if you'd just said Mormon's aren't mainstream Christians this conversation never would have happened.

Ok. Mormons aren't mainstream Christians IMO... they're Mormon. Nothing wrong with either, but the are different enough to define using different words. There is no other "Christian" church that accepts Mormon doctrine... or they would be defines as Mormon.

Except they don't, just most of them. Just like most Christian religions reject the Pope, but that doesn't make rejection of the Pope a defining characteristic of being Christian. You argument appears to consist of... I'm not sure if you are begging the question (could be wrong with this, begging the question always gives me troubles): Mormons aren't Christian because rejection of Joseph Smith is a requirement of Christianity because Mormons don't and they aren't Christian, or no true Scotsman: All true Christians reject Joseph Smith. But wait, Mormons don't! Well... Mormons aren't true Christians. Maybe its both.

Catholics and mainstream Christians use the bible as doctrine. It may differ, but that's the root of the doctrine they subscribe to. Jews reject the New Testament, so just because Christians accept both, it doesn't make a Jew a Christian. Mormon doctrine is exclusive to Joseph Smith, who was a "M<ormon" prophet of God. By claiming Mormons are in fact Christian by definition, it would imply all Christian denominations accept the doctrine of Joseph Smith. This isn't semantics IMO, it's the basic definition of the word.

As far as the quotes, none of them are teaching that we don't believe in the teachings or divinity of Jesus Christ. None of them even try to touch what the dictionary definition of a Christian is. There is some attempt to segregate between the 'Christian world' (aka mainstream Christianity, notice the use of adjectives here and quotes to indicate non-literal or non-standard definitions?) and themselves but considering the historical context that is understandable, but none of those are doctrinal statements that Mormon's aren't Christians, or that the definition of Christian includes not believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet. If anything a couple of them can be read the other way, that the rest of Christianity aren't 'true' Christians (told you it isn't a new sentiment), though they aren't statements of doctrine. The doctrine of the Church is not that Anglicans (for example) are not Christian.

A Christian believes that Jesus is God in man, and a Mormon believes in a Godhead, where Jesus is not God, be separate from God. Would you agree? The basic definition of who Jesus was is vastly different. These differences are not subtle.

If you are trying to point out that some LDS Leadership has said things that can be taken as offensive themselves, well, I never considered that a point of debate. If nothing else Bruce R. McConkie and Brigham Young themselves seal the deal on that (and Brigham Young liked to offend Mormons as well, as did J. Golden Kimball) without digging any deeper.

Joesh Smith himself said all Christian religions were wrong. How then, can you tell me that Mormons are the real Christians? What do you call a Christian who rejects the BOM and Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God?

Tell me, if a Greek Orthodox tells somebody he is Christian is he ashamed of being, or being called Greek Orthodox? Mormons aren't ashamed to be called Mormons, they just by and large get irked when they are told they don't believe in the teachings and divinity of Jesus Christ which is what you are saying when you say they aren't Christian. Kinda like how I expect most Catholics (or any other Christian denomination) would react if you accused them of not believing in Jesus.

We're talking about the only religion to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God (not counting various brands of LDS like RLDS etc.). You make it seem like this is just a small thing? I'm not debating which is correct, just which encompasses what. A "Christian" does not necessarily believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, but a Mormon does. Wht does a Mormon claim both? What's wrong with being Mormon?

If you mean why do some people just respond with Christian instead of specifying denomination? Probably for some of the same reasons Christians of other denominations respond with a generic Christian instead of a more specific Anglican, Baptist or Catholic , they may not feel the distinction is germane (both replies are equally true though one does communicate more information than the other) to the topic and moment. They could also be trying to avoid conflict, some people like to argue about religion and some don't, if they don't like to argue about it they'll probably go with the (true and correct) answer that results in less of a chance of arguement.

This is more of the same. I reject Joseh Smith as a prophet of God, yet you're trying to tell me what I believe includes belief in Joseph Smith. It's not what I'm telling you how you are defined, it's you telling me how what I believe is defined, and Christianity does not include Joseph Smith's doctrine. That's why there's two different words that mean different things.

[Generally_Me]

Thews,
Is a bear a mammal?



So are all mammals bears?