Here are some questions I would like to pose…

[Proposing]

If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Thank you for your responses.

[Dr T]

Hey Proposing,

Don't be surprised if this is the only reply you get from your OP.

[siouxz72]

Originally Posted by Proposing

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Thank you for your responses.

Okay, these are the only two I feel qualified to answer and the answer is the same.... We are Christians because we are followers of Christ. Simple, wasn't it?!

[Loudmouth_Mormon]

Hi Proposing,

I can't really comment on your eternal progression questions, because it makes my head hurt, and at the end of the day, any answer I could give would just be my best guess. We just don't know.

But I did want to comment on the rest of your post:

Originally Posted by Proposing

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God.

The answer to your question is no - Muslims can't (and don't) claim to be Christian. A Christian is one who accepts Christ as savior and redeemer - muslims do not do this. As you mentioned, Islam rejects the divinity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for our sake, preferring to look on Him as a prophet only.

They too believe in salvation through works.

I don't know what muslims believe about salvation through works. But if you're implying that Mormons believe we're saved through our works, you are incorrect. I've been taught, ever since I was a teeny tiny little mormon boy, that the only way to be saved is to accept Christ as savior. Yes, we believe that God gave us commandments, and we're supposed to keep them. But yes, as we all fall short, as none measure up, we all require Christ to take our sins from us, because we can't do it by ourself. The New Testament is big on "repent and be baptized" and "keep my commandments" - and we Mormons listen.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine?

What is the definition of "Christian"? Is it not "Someone who follows Christ"? I follow Christ. Therefore, I'm a Christian. I don't deny the Christianity of people who subscribe to the trinitarian belief, please don't deny me my Christianity because I believe in a Godhead.

Thank you for your responses.

Hope this helps.

LM

[Stampede]

Originally Posted by Proposing

If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Thank you for your responses.

God is intelligence, he is intelligent enough to make all thngs subject unto himself. Inelligence is learned, and it has to be learned from somewhere. If you take a look at alot of the "theories" peopel have about the universe and humans, like the Big Bang Theory, and the theory of evolution; who knows if Eons ago, a being had evolved into a perfected being full of light and truth, and from there learned how to control things? and then from there, the progression keeps going, a continuation of seeds forever and ever.

Science and LDS theology works in harmony if you know where to look. Matter is eternal. it is impossible to destroy matter, you can only change its form. The smallest known particles are quarks and leptons, and those do not disappear, they decay into smaller particles that we are unable to detect.

From LDS scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants 131:

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

God is eternal because matter, energy, intelligence, and truth are all eternal.

Our Heavenly Father is not a "lesser God" He is seated at the right hand of his father and so forth. He is our Father in heaven. He is crowned with the same glory of his father, and his father's father.

As for the muslim thing. No, they are not christians, because of thedefinition of Christ according to Christians. Christ is more than "just a prophet" to us.

Muslims follow the same line of information as we do from the patriarch Abraham. Except we do not accept mohammed as a prophet.

Main stream christianity doesn't believe the heavens are open, they thinkt heya re closed and that there can be no more revelation, and no more prophets. But us LDS know for a fact that this is false, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and to prove it God gave him the keys of prophecy and revelation, and gave unto him the Book of Mormon as a Second witness unto the divinity of Jesus Christ. Restored the priesthood which was taken from the earth.

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by Proposing

If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

It would imply that, if you were limiting your reasoning and thought to the manifest universe/multiverse. I'm not sure God is so limited. Practical answer: I dunno.

Originally Posted by Proposing

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

Your assumptions make no sense when applied to a God in the Judeo/Christian sense. Perhaps you are referring to a demi-god, and if so, pls direct your question to some believer in demi-gods (Hindu, perhaps?).

Originally Posted by Proposing

If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

Who believes god is only the god of this world? Certainly not Mormons.

Originally Posted by Proposing

In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

Yup. You see, it makes no sense. That's good because Mormons don't believe what you have been saying. Who led you (in error) to believe such things? I'd question everything else they've been telling you, were I you!

Originally Posted by Proposing

If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

Mormons believe God was God from eternity, and into the eternities. Somebody really messed you up!

Originally Posted by Proposing

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

Nope. I'm going to stop now, 'cause all this is just nuts. You totally need to learn what Mormons believe. All this stuff you've been talking about is garbage.

Originally Posted by Proposing

Thank you for your responses.

You're welcome!


HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by Stampede

God is intelligence, he is intelligent enough to make all thngs subject unto himself. Inelligence is learned, and it has to be learned from somewhere.

Just one point, Stampede. According to JS, Intelligence is eternal and co-equal with God. I don't know how it could be considered 'learned'.


HiJolly

[Dale]

If the creedal God can be without beginning why can't the progession of God's be without beginning? And if the creedal God found his urge to be a God why couldn't the first exalted God?

Joseph Smith felt God the Father n one was subordinate to an original God, but became so perfect he was allowed to become an independent exclusive God himself.

Joseph Smith actually felt God's personality was uncreated. He did speculate in one of his sermon's spirit's were created. It would have been better if he suggested that the person within the spirit body later created was uncreated. But he accepted Psalm 90:2 very literaly. At some point he felt the Father like the 2nd person of the Godhead, or Trinity if you prefer took upon himself mortality. That the Father went through a birth, death and resurrection process.

The world's that will be inhabited by God's are not world's that existed before only the all thing's Jesus created. The god's that will inhabit those world's will either be forever subodinate to God, or have to find a place outside all thing's that God own's including the world's.

It is my understanding Jesus is figuratively one with the exclusive God, and is kind of like a spiritual medium in a saiance at time's. So he speak's misleadingly as if God were a singular being as in Isa.43:10. But honestly they are aware of each other which make's them two modern person's. I just confess to the contradiction between the three and their misleading claim to being one God i see no way to explain it.

We don't know that other worlds are lifeless. It's only been within the last twenty year's that we even developed the technology to find the 200+ planets we have. And even then we are dealing with gas giants like Jupiter. We can't travel to look up close and see. Plus i think it's the next decade that they are launching a specific program to look for earth like planet's. They recognize that the planet finding technology isn't enough to find earth like planets let alone advanced enough to find ET.

Maybe UFO's have crashed on earth and the government keep's the wreckage locked up.

Islam does not think Jesus was anything more than a great man or teacher. Ephesian's 2:8-10 has been misread by Evangelical's. It merely say's man is not saved by mere acts of human effort. Some of those works are works we have to do upon pain of damnation if we don't do them. Jame's 2:10 reaffirm's God will hold man not saved by grace after all they can do will be held guilty for act's of breaking law. Evangelicalism depated from early Christianity when they rejected grace plus obedience. This used to be common orthodoxy before Martin Luther said it wasn't. If being heretic's that creates a new version of the church makes one a non-Christian Evangelicals are not Christian.

I use a broader definition of Christian. I consider Evangelicals Christian although i think them wrong.

By the way i don't see baptism as acts of human effort, but yielding ouselve's to God allowing him to work in us by his grace. (1 Corr. 15:10)

The creedal writer's in order to confess the idea of the three of God did not wander close to the idea of God's adopted a misleading word. Instead of confessing the three were like three men person's they said the three were mere role's of God. They employed the latin word persona to suggest the person's of God were no more person's than the person an actor played via his face masks in a play.

The person's of an actor in a play can't talk to each other as the Father can with his Son. The ability of the three to be aware of each other wanders the New Testament idea of God close to poly-theism. Orthodox Jews and Moslem critic's of the Trinity are right into seeing the Trinity idea as poly-theistic. Only by saying the person's of God are as dumb as the person's of an actor can you deny the person's are defineable as being like three modern person's.

Isa.43:10 without the latin word persona presents as much problem for the idea of God's as much as it does the idea of the three and one God. If the word lie's when it say's the person's are mere role's of God we only have one definition of person's. The only word i know of dealing with three person's is associated with three human person's. Without that ancient word credal writer's had no defense against the Jewish and Moslem charge the Trinity was a mix of mono-theistic and poly-theistic idea's.

I am actually a member of the Community of Christ (Formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints). We don't feel God was ever a man. Officially my denomination teache's the Trinity. The Southern Baptist misrepresnted our belief statement, and thought we wre modalists. If they had the book Exploring the Faith which explained the belief statement they would have found the creedal idea of God. But not being a creedal church we have had Anti-Trinitarian's also. Those who rejected the Trinity to avoid wandering into tri-theism denied the Deity of Jesus. I see no way to deny the Deity of Jesus, and since i feel the persona word is untrue i see Jesus as to disinct from God, and close enough to be called a God among three God's.

My answer's are how i would answer your questions if i were LDS. Plus i doubt the truth of the Trinity.

[rameumptom]

If god is god through procession (he is god because he served his god, who served his god, who….), then that implies that at some point there was a god who always was god or that found a way to become a god on his own. Which is it?

Rameumptom: We have very little knowledge revealed about the progression (not procession) of gods. Whether there is an initial God or not is something that has not been revealed, and therefore falls into speculation. However, it is not any more difficult of a concept than imagining a God that always has been: how did he ever get started?

If there was an original god would that mean that the god of this world is a lesser god and that since his power came from this original god that he is not all powerful?

Rameumptom: No, because we are told that God shares all that he has with those that receive of His fullness. In a Godhead relationship, all things are shared equally and fully, so if one is all powerful, all of them share that power.


If god is only the god of this world, where did the other worlds come from and why are they lifeless? Why have we not discovered life on other worlds yet?

Rameumptom: We believe that God is the God of all his creations. Moses 1 tells us that God has many creations on-going, and could only allow Moses to see this earth, as to see all his creations would have placed Moses in all his glory,and he could not have withstood it. Life on other planets is difficult, because they are so very distant. Only in the last 10 years have we actually found evidence of planets in other solar systems/galaxies, and most of that evidence is indirect (gravitational pull on stars, etc). Chances are that the life on other planets is either too far away or is not developed enough to contact us. Or have they? (silly bow to the UFOlogists out there).



In Genesis is says that God created the stars. If you believe there are other worlds with other gods then none of these had stars or suns.

Rameumptom: The question is whether other Gods create things within our universe or in other universes. Or perhaps they create so far away in this universe that those stars were invisible to the early Biblical writers. We have to realize that the Biblical writers were writing from their world view - which is why we see statements like "4 corners of the earth", based upon their belief in a flat earth. Not everything written was based upon God's knowledge, but on knowledge given to the early prophets and then interpreted according to what they knew at that time.


If the Bible claims that God is eternal, then how could he have become a god?

Rameumptom: Define the term "eternal." As far as we are concerned, God has been around a lot longer than we have, and can seem like an eternity. For ancient people with a finite understanding of numbers, 1 billion could have been eternal. Therein lies the rub in trying to fit ancient beliefs into our modern vernacular - sometimes we read things differently than they did. (Also, see my comment on the 4 corners of the earth).


If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

Rameumptom: Mormons claim Jesus as their savior and redeemer. Muslims do not. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of God, and nothing more. The key is how far does one extend the definition of Christian? Mormons believe in salvation by grace, and exaltation by faith and works combined. Those who make it into the lowest levels of heaven are saved by grace (including murderers and adulterers), not because they were good or obedient. We cannot resurrect nor save ourselves. What we can do is become like Jesus, and in so doing, become willing and able to receive a higher kingdom of glory. For those who are not like Jesus, they will find it is not comfortable for them to dwell in His presence, and will prefer a lesser kingdom of heaven to enjoy.
Muslims believe one is saved entirely by obedience to the pillars of Islam. Jesus was not a Savior, but only a prophet. Given that the New Testament states we must believe on Jesus' name to be saved, we then have to decide just how much we must believe to receive that salvation.


How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Rameumptom: How can Protestants say they are Christian, when they broke away as heretics from the Roman Catholic church? Whose job is it to determine who is and isn't a Christian? Either we are all saved by believing in the name of Jesus, or we aren't. Now, if you were to ask me if I were a traditional Trinitarian Christian, I'd agree that I am not. It isn't the same as calling yourself the President, because that position has requirements that you clearly have not met. To be a Christian requires faith on Jesus as Savior and Redeemer - Mormons meet that criteria. Do we make the requirements based on the Bible or on Christian creeds that are non-Biblical? If we go by the creeds, then whose creeds do we use? If we follow a strict Trinitarian creedal requirement, then most Christians would fail, as most believe in modalism, not Trinitarianism. Modalism was considered heretical by St Augustine, by the way. If we use the TULIP creed, then most Christians fail, because most do not believe in predestination, but rather free will.

If we go by the Bible, then anyone believing in Christ's atonement IS a Christian. From there, we can then discuss how good/bad a Christian is. But that is a discussion of quality, not of inclusion/exclusion. I can consider a person to not be a great Christian for believing in slavery, abortion, homosexual acts, etc. But they are still a Christian.

And as a Latter-day Saint, I am a Christian.

[Elgama]

Originally Posted by Proposing

If god is god through procession (he is god because he served

If a Mormon can claim to be Christian can a Muslim claim the same? Islam believes in the Bible as Christians do. They believe in Jesus (in that he was a prophet). They say they believe in the same God as Christians. They say that they were given the continued and true gospel of God. They too believe in salvation through works.

How can a Mormon say he is Christian by his own opinion when other Christian denominations do not agree because they do not share the same doctrine? I.E… God always was and always will be, there are no other gods, Jesus is God, and we are saved through Christ and not through works because we can never be good enough through ourselves…. Wouldn’t this be equivalent to me calling myself the President even though nobody else agrees with me?

Thank you for your responses.

To paraphrase CS Lewis in the Narnia books it is for each of us to only know their own story, we know what Heavenly Father feels it is pertinent for us to gain some understand of the world about us and to return home to Him I have views on your other questions but they are just my views - personally I believe its perfectly possible for a Hindu or Muslim to know and follow Christ whilst calling him another name after all its unlikely the Disciples would have called him Jesus cultures use the form or sound that is most appropriate for them. And anyone can call themselves Christian its not for me or anyone else to say after all only Christ really knows who is a true follower of Christ. Personally I would never say I was Christian but I know it means a lot to other LDS.

-Charley