Trinity Proof-Texts Refuted - Page 2

JonboySquarepants · #11 (**permalink**) 01-21-2008, 04:08 PM

yes, there are scriptures that could be read to mean that the father son and holy spirit are one in purpose, because, of course they are. it's a hard thing to grasp and it makes it an even more difficult task since the bible has been translated so many times and because of that mormons don't believe it is fully the word of God(article of faith... one of them

). i'm not saying that the bible is full of errors, i'm just saying it allows for us to go to those other languages as you're doing and reinterpret the words used. wouldn't it just be more simple to look in the book of mormon and see what it says? the book of mormon wasn't translated by men, was it? yes, it was written by men, but would God have given j. smith a translation that was full of errors? it was translated by God and is the word of God(same article of faith). in the book of mormon, it says there is only one God. there are verses that don't just say that the 'father, son and holy spirit are one,' because that could be read in the same manner as a man and his wife are 'one.' no, the book of mormon takes it a step further in several places. the book of mormon says there is only one God. it says that the father, son, and holy ghost are one God, without end. it says 'one God.' that there is a true and living God and none else beside him. the testimony of the three witnesses(oliver cowdery, david whitmer, and martin harris) ends thus: "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."
if either the three witness or the book of mormon really meant father, son, and holy spirit are three Gods, wouldn't they have said so?

WillowTheWhisp · #12 (**permalink**) 01-21-2008, 04:18 PM

But Joseph Smith saw two distinct seperate persons and that he could not debate or argue about because he saw them standing there in front of him totally seperate from each other, united in aim, purpose, desire etc but individual beings.

prisonchaplain · #13 (**permalink**) 01-21-2008, 04:30 PM

Jesus is worshipped in the New Testament. Thomas bowed to him and declared, "My Lord and my God!" after the resurrection. Further, God the Father commands the angels to worship him in Hebrews 1. In fact, the Father even call Jesus God in that same passage (see especially verses 6 & 8). I believe it's Colossians chapter one that waxes very eloquent about the glory of Christ.

It is true that some Christians have a vague notion of the Godhead, that borders on tri-theism. And, with that error, comes the question "But who do I worship?" Trinitarians, on the other hand, seeing God as one being, one essence, do not tarry on dangerous ground when they give glory to the Son.

JonboySquarepants · #14 (**permalink**) 01-21-2008, 05:03 PM

willow, in which version of the first vision? in one version it was jesus only, in another it was angels and in another it was moroni.

Dale · #15 (**permalink**) 01-21-2008, 06:31 PM

Not mentioning seeing the Father is resolved in an article by Bob Bobbitt entitled First Vision: Another Perspective.

Restoration Apologetics

FAIR Wiki also deal's with various First Vision Issues. Go down until you find Specific First Vision Issues.

First Vision accounts - FAIRMormon

But at FAIR's wiki i see the problem of the number of person's he mentioned seeing in the 1832 account resolved. The difficulty of the angel's mentioned in the 1835 account was resolved.

I never read an account of the vision By Joseph Smith himself that said Moroni appeared in the vision. The FAIR Wiki page has a number of statement's made by other men that mention Joseph Smith saw an angel.

If he decided people would object to seeing the Father based on John 1:18 i could see him intentionally not mentioning the detail. It does not mean he lied in later account's though. I am not certain mentioning seeing the Father is a true contradiction. To me it's unfair to accuse a guy of lying just because he contradicted himself if that's what he did.

Jesus may have indicated in Luke 24:30 that his spirit body resembled other spirit's. If Jesus had form the Father can also be either a personage of spirit, or of spirit and flesh like the resurrected Jesus. Ether 3:15 has men's mortal bodies created after the image of Jesus pre-mortal spirit. Yet it describe's him and the Father, and Holy Spirit as one God anyway.

PentiumInside · #16 (**permalink**) 01-21-2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Leaving ample opportunity at some stage in the thread for one or both sides to slip into un-Christ-like behaviour.

Quite possibly the wisest warning I have seen on this forum

It usually appplies to me first ! lol

WillowTheWhisp · #17 (**permalink**) 01-22-2008, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonboySquarepants

willow, in which version of the first vision? in one version it was jesus only, in another it was angels and in another it was moroni.

Well, I'm inclined to go with the 'version' which is included in my set of scriptures.

When it comes to differing accounts of the same thing I think I probably do that myself depending on if I'm giving a brief outline or an in depth description of something. Then if someone else repeats to a third party what I have said they may emphasise one point more than another, or even misunderstand something and unintentionally put their own interpretation on it.

If I give an account of my own conversion story it can come across in several different ways but that doesn't mean I'm not a convert.

I joined the church because I was seeking the truth.
I joined the church because I worked with someone who was a member.
I joined the church because I met missionaries who had accounts at the bank where I worked.

All are true and yet if you just heard one single point from three different independant sources they could sound like contradictions.

JonboySquarepants · #18 (**permalink**) 01-22-2008, 02:50 PM

so, what if i or someone else were to take each account and put them side by side and add it all up and we were to see what we believe to be contradictions and inconsistancies? somebody earlier mentioned the fair site and this bobbitt guy who explains it. i read thoses and i still think, at least for me, they are pretty big inconsistancies. i saw a show hosted by a guy named shawn mccraney and he does a great job comparing the different first vision accounts. but, if you don't want to believe him, then don't. but i didn't see anybody comment on the book of mormon references from earlier.

"the book of mormon wasn't translated by men, was it? yes, it was written by men, but would God have given j. smith a translation that was full of errors? it was translated by God and is the word of God(same article of faith). in the book of mormon, it says there is only one God. there are verses that don't just say that the 'father, son and holy spirit are one,' because that could be read in the same manner as a man and his wife are 'one.' no, the book of mormon takes it a step further in several places. the book of mormon says there is only one God. it says that the father, son, and holy ghost are one God, without end. it says 'one God.' that there is a true and living God and none else beside him. the testimony of the three witnesses(oliver cowdery, david whitmer, and martin harris) ends thus: "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."
if either the three witness or the book of mormon really meant father, son, and holy spirit are three Gods, wouldn't they have said so?"

HiJolly · #19 (**permalink**) 01-22-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonboySquarepants

wouldn't it just be more simple to look in the book of mormon and see what it says? the book of mormon wasn't translated by men, was it? yes, it was written by men, but would God have given j. smith a translation that was full of errors?

"full of errors"? Care to explain a bit more? What do you think? Grammar? Spelling? Doctrine? What did Moroni (or was it Mormon) say about errors in the Book of Mormon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonboySquarepants

it was translated by God and is the word of God(same article of faith). in the book of mormon, it says there is only one God. there are verses that don't just say that the 'father, son and holy spirit are one,' because that could be read in the same manner as a man and his wife are 'one.' no, the book of mormon takes it a step further in several places. the book of mormon says there is only one God. it says that the father, son, and holy ghost are one God, without end. it says 'one God.' that there is a true and living God and none else beside him. the testimony of the three witnesses(oliver cowdery, david whitmer, and martin harris) ends thus: "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen."
if either the three witness or the book of mormon really meant father, son, and holy spirit are three Gods, wouldn't they have said so?

Sheesh. Talk about an offender for a word. The three are One god. So there. Straight from an active Mormon in 2008.

HiJolly

HiJolly · #20 (**permalink**) 01-22-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonboySquarepants

so, what if i or someone else were to take each account and put them side by side and add it all up and we were to see what we believe to be contradictions and inconsistancies? somebody earlier mentioned the fair site and this bobbitt guy who explains it. i read thoses and i still think, at least for me, they are pretty big inconsistancies. i saw a show hosted by a guy named shawn mccraney and he does a great job comparing the different first vision accounts. but, if you don't want to believe him, then don't. but i didn't see anybody comment on the book of mormon references from earlier.

Ok, done. Now you don't have to feel ignored.

*I* don't think 'shawn' does a great job, but then, you might expect that, from a faithful LDS point-of-view, eh? BTW, I do consider myself a 'born-again' Mormon, though I didn't get ex'd for it...

HiJolly