What is apostasy?

[Brother Dorsey]

Originally Posted by jasper_21

can you give any verse in the bible that there was an apostacy

I'll answer that question with a question...can you show me any verse in the Bible that shows me the fall of the Roman empire?

You can't because it happened after the new testament was written....just as the great apostacy happened after the new testament.

Besides it's in the Bible....one of them old prophets talks about a falling away of the Lord's church...can't remember the verse...help someone!

[Faded]

Apostasy is just a fancy term for "falling away." There are many historical instances that could be referred to as such. When we talk about "The Great Apostasy" we are not talking about single individual. We're talking about

At the time of Christ's earthly ministry among the Jews, the Jewish faith had fallen away from correct practices. Christ did not tell them, "Hey guys, you're doing a fine job, keep up the great work!" He emphatically denounced them and their corruption of the true beliefs and practices that God had set in place through Moses. He called them, "Whitewashed tombs" at one point - about as insulting as you can get at that time. I think that God does not have to apologize for being tactless. Anything short of correctly teaching and practicing what God commanded was and is unacceptable to Him. And the Jews responded by killing Him, their own Messiah and God. So when the Jewish Religion fell away to such an extreme degree that they would reject and kill the messenger of the Lord -- in this case, the Lord Himself, then we can confidently say that they were in a status of Apostasy. The had fallen away from God.

From a Catholic viewpoint, the Protestant Reformation would be seen as a mass-Apostasy. Why? Because they claim to be the One True and Universal Church ordained of God. To reject and break away from the Roman Catholic Church was, in their view, a mass abandonment of God. So this would be another case where the word Apostasy is applicable, even though we Latter Day Saints would not view it that way.

Fast forward to the time of Joseph Smith. His experience begins with a simple question. Joseph wanted to know which Church God wanted him to join.

Originally Posted by Joseph Smith

I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." ...

He took James advice and went into the woods near his home where he could be alone to pray to God and get an answer on the matter.

Originally Posted by Joseph Smith

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the dsun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me ... When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

God did make a tactful answer. He did not say, "Great job guys, keep it up!" He denounced the incorrect teachings of the Christian religions.

Yes there are scriptures to support the concept of the Great Apostasy, but the underlying reason we believe it happened is because God said it happened. Joseph was not expecting the answer he got. He certainly was not expecting to become God's prophet and instrument in re-establishing the correct practices, believes, doctrines and re-establishing God's Church and Kingdom here on Earth.

How did Christianity respond? They harassed and persecuted Joseph Smith and those who believed he was a prophet of God and followed him. They drove them from place to place: from New York, then Ohio, then Missouri, then Illinois. Just as the Jews had done before them, the people had the messenger of God arrested on false charges and then killed him. They drove the believers out of the nation entirely -- to what is Utah today (was part of Mexico at that time.) They have continued to attack, demonize and spread false rumors about "the Mormons" to this very day.

[Faded]

Originally Posted by Brother Dorsey

I'll answer that question with a question...can you show me any verse in the Bible that shows me the fall of the Roman empire?

You can't because it happened after the new testament was written....just as the great apostacy happened after the new testament.

Besides it's in the Bible....one of them old prophets talks about a falling away of the Lord's church...can't remember the verse...help someone!

Here you go:
Amos 8:11-12

[11] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
[12] And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [the Second Coming] is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the Second Coming] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

These two scriptures seem explicit enough, but it is foolishness for anyone to claim that they PROVE the Great Apostasy happened. There are over 10,000 Christian religions, and each one of them will read and understand the Bible a little differently. We believe that the Prophets and Apostles knew in advance that there would be Apostasy enmasse, but we cannot prove it beyond all doubt from the Bible. There isn't much that CAN be absolutely proven from the Bible.

[darrel]

I think the 10,000 number would be conservative. Anyone can establish a 501c3 organization and call it a church. Many professors of religion are not called of God as was Aaron (Heb. 5:4)( Exod.28:1) but take upon themselves the authority to preach. They claim their authority is the Bible. The True Church of Jesus Christ would be patterned after His Church He established in the meridian of time.


Not many (maybe one) has that organization that Christ seemed to think important enough to set up.

[Michael_Newman]

Let's not forget that our church leaders in the mid 1800's excommunicated members for personal apostasy, which included not doing their callings and not upholding their oath and covenants.

Imagine if we returned to excommunicating members who do not home teach, visit teach, attend to their meetings, callings - and are temple worthy and attending the temple.

I pray that we can all avoid personal apostasy in the least,

Michael

[jasper_21]

Originally Posted by Brother Dorsey

I'll answer that question with a question...can you show me any verse in the Bible that shows me the fall of the Roman empire?

You can't because it happened after the new testament was written....just as the great apostacy happened after the new testament.

Besides it's in the Bible....one of them old prophets talks about a falling away of the Lord's church...can't remember the verse...help someone!

NO NO NO!!!! kindly give me a specific verse that support your claim that there will be an apostasy after the death of the apostle.

your duty is to answer the cross examination. not to return my question.

answer with a question is not a proper answer to my question. i need a biblical verse not your own imaginary story.

[Brother Dorsey]

Originally Posted by jasper_21

NO NO NO!!!! kindly give me a specific verse that support your claim that there will be an apostasy after the death of the apostle.

your duty is to answer the cross examination. not to return my question.

answer with a question is not a proper answer to my question. i need a biblical verse not your own imaginary story.

With thanks to FADED:
Amos 8:11-12

Quote:
[11] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
[12] And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3

Quote:
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [the Second Coming] is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the Second Coming] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Okay...there you go 2, count em' 2 bible verses that tell of the "falling away" , the "great apostasy" where the word of God will not be found on the earth....it had to be restored. And praise God it was restored by the Lord Himself through His choosen Prophet Joseph Smith in 1830!

I hope that those 2 bible verses are plain enough for you, they are simple and easy enough for me to understand.....or are you one of those who liken to twist what the Lord has said and come up with your own imaginary story? Hmmmm?

[jasper_21]

Originally Posted by Brother Dorsey

With thanks to FADED:
Amos 8:11-12

Quote:
[11] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
[12] And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3

Quote:
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ [the Second Coming] is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the Second Coming] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Okay...there you go 2, count em' 2 bible verses that tell of the "falling away" , the "great apostasy" where the word of God will not be found on the earth....it had to be restored. And praise God it was restored by the Lord Himself through His choosen Prophet Joseph Smith in 1830!

I hope that those 2 bible verses are plain enough for you, they are simple and easy enough for me to understand.....or are you one of those who liken to twist what the Lord has said and come up with your own imaginary story? Hmmmm?

scriptural misinterpretation.

in 2 Thessalonian 2:1-3 it talks about on what will happen to man during the tribulation period. the Tribulation is a relatively short period of time where people who follow God will experience worldwide persecution and be purified and strengthened by it. The Tribulation is generally thought to occur before the Second Coming of Jesus and the end of the world. It is not occur after the death of the apostle. Tribulation period will happen during the millennial time. Also to discuss it very well in verse 4 you will read the activity of Satan during the tribulation period.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (New International Version)

4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


2 Thessalonian 2:1-4 is a futuristic prophecy that will happen a few years from now before the coming of Jesus. It pertains to millennial time. because before the judgment day Satan will release from prison and will allow to deceive people for a period of 1000 years. and after 1000 years those who deceive by Satan will torment to hell.

This is the correlative verse of 2 thessalonians 2:4

“1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.” Revelation 20:1-3

At the end of the 1,000 years Satan will be released from the bottomless pit for a short time. He will gather the wicked together and they will fight against God and His people. God will bring fire down from heaven to destroy the wicked. Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. He will never again tempt any person.


“7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Revelation 20:7-10

note all people will deceive by satan.


I hope dear friends that you understand my position regarding the verse that you posted. You may choose not to believe it. But for me it is a true interpretation of the verse,

god bless.

[pam]

note all people will deceive by satan.

I'm confused. You think ALL will be deceived by Satan during this time? Or did you mean NOT all people will be deceived? It's amazing how one little "e" can change the entire message.

[Maxel]

Originally Posted by jasper_21

NO NO NO!!!! kindly give me a specific verse that support your claim that there will be an apostasy after the death of the apostle.

your duty is to answer the cross examination. not to return my question.

answer with a question is not a proper answer to my question. i need a biblical verse not your own imaginary story.

Refusal to answer cross-examination yourself is not a good thing. Brother Dorsey has a point: apostasy came after the collective writing of the New Testament was written. However, Faded gave you answers.

You're not here to find answers; accept we believe what we believe without trying to convince us otherwise. I notice you demand we accept that you interpret the scriptures otherwise. Fine; but don't demand one thing of us and another thing of yourself.

Are you here for answers or to poke fun and insult us? It seems you're well aware there are no verses in the Bible that, in your opinion, prove the Apostasy happened. If there was, you would be one of us. You're obviously not.