Another attempt at describing the Trinity

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by Maureen

That you have wrong, because we already agree they are distinct from each other, we just don't define their distinctiveness as being equal to multiple Gods.

That is the part I'll never be able to get my head round. It is what I struggled with before I'd ever heard of the LDS church - then when I heard the LDS teaching on the subject it was light the cartoon light switch going on - Bingo! Yes of course!

Originally Posted by Maureen

Yes, we are kind of going in circles but, just so I'm clear Willow, you believe that the Father, Son and HS are 3 Gods, is that correct?

M.

Yes I believe they are 3 gods (note the small 'g'). It's unfortunate that the word God is used to describe Heavenly Father. He is the One. He is the father of us all, including being the father of Jesus Christ and of the Holy Ghost. They are both our brothers. They have however progressed further than we have along the path to perfection and divinity. Both are gods. That does not mean it is not necessary to have a physical body to continue progression. Jesus has passed through mortality, just as we all do, and has attained that body for himself. The Holy Ghost has not yet done so. I personally believe he has chosen not to do so in order to be able to help us in ways that only a spirit being can. I believe he will be the last to be born on earth. I also believe that Jesus married and is eternally sealed to that wife. As far as I am aware this isn't officially taught church doctrine but I find it unimaginable that he would deprive himself of something essential.

I think that answers some of your questions too AnthonyB.

[JonboySquarepants]

Willow, maureen is correct in saying 3 Gods. why do you use lower case g's when the church does not?

"When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. ... The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc." (lds bible dictionary)

that's how the lds church defines God. note the not small g's. since, in your mind, there is a difference between g's and G's, does this definition set forth by the church change your understanding of the Godhead?

[WillowTheWhisp]

No, not at all. My understanding is still that they are three distinct and separate beings.

I used the small 'g' because in the English language the capital letter is more often than not used when referring to a name of a person. I would say God the Father when I am using the word to refer to his name. Then again some people would put 'His Name' whereas I don't because I feel it confuses the grammar.

Psalm 82 verse 6 says "Know ye not that ye are gods and children of the most High" It doesn't use a capital letter there because it is using the word 'gods' to describe 'godness' (for want of a better word) but it does use a capital letter for the word 'High' (where we all know that in any normal setting the adjective 'high' would not have a capital) because in this particular instance the word is being used to identify Heavenly Father. In other words it is a substitute name.

So I can say that Jesus, Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost are gods but refer to them as God the Son, God the Father, God the Holy Ghost.

I don't know if I'm making sense. I know what I mean but it's difficult to put it into words. It doesn't change the fact that I believe they are 3 separate people and the LDS church teaches that they are 3 separate people. If we were having this discussion in German we wouldn't even be having this discussion because all nouns have capital letters.

[JonboySquarepants]

before i finish reading your post, you are really taking that verse in psalm out of context. it is not referring to godness. it is referring to judges. it is not saying we are godly or gods in the literal sense. we can even look at it this way. you were making a difference between upper case G's and lower case g's. the scripture you quoted uses a lower case g. in the bible, that usually refers to false gods or false idols. if you don't believe me that it's referring to the judges of the time who thought of themselves as gods, ask the other people on this board who are more scholarly than i.
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willow, do you agree with me when i said that maureen was correct in saying 3 Gods(not the big G). the church says they are 3 Gods. The Father is A God, the Son is A God, and the Holy Spirit is A God(note the big G's). i just want to know if we agree on that small point. because if not, i can give you the church's definition of God. it says it there.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm sorry you have completely lost me there. False gods yet children of the most High? That doesn't make sense.

Yes I too believe that there are three Gods, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate individual Gods. Isn't that what I have been saying? They are all divine and they are all separate. They are not three parts of one person. That is what I have always believed and what I have always been lead to believe is Church teaching on the subject.

[JonboySquarepants]

willow, i just wanted to see you say it with the big G's. before, it seemed like you were making a difference between the big and little g's. you said to note the small g's.
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they are not false gods. they were judges. they were men given the title of god because of their authority over other men and because they were entrusted with the law. the psalm said God gave them that authority. "I have said, ye are gods...", but the whole context of this psalm is that these judges were not being just. read verses 2-4. it's telling them to defend the poor and fatherless and to deliver the poor and needy.
this psalm is referring to an elect few, chosen by God, to judge others according to the law.

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by JonboySquarepants

before i finish reading your post, you are really taking that verse in psalm out of context. it is not referring to godness. it is referring to judges. it is not saying we are godly or gods in the literal sense. we can even look at it this way. you were making a difference between upper case G's and lower case g's. the scripture you quoted uses a lower case g. in the bible, that usually refers to false gods or false idols. if you don't believe me that it's referring to the judges of the time who thought of themselves as gods, ask the other people on this board who are more scholarly than i.

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...they are not false gods. they were judges. they were men given the title of god because of their authority over other men and because they were entrusted with the law. the psalm said God gave them that authority. "I have said, ye are gods...", but the whole context of this psalm is that these judges were not being just. read verses 2-4. it's telling them to defend the poor and fatherless and to deliver the poor and needy.
this psalm is referring to an elect few, chosen by God, to judge others according to the law.

JonboySquarepants, I am not more scholarly than you, but I do agree with your interpretation of Psalms 82:6.

M.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by JonboySquarepants

willow, i just wanted to see you say it with the big G's. before, it seemed like you were making a difference between the big and little g's. you said to note the small g's.
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they are not false gods. they were judges. they were men given the title of god because of their authority over other men and because they were entrusted with the law. the psalm said God gave them that authority. "I have said, ye are gods...", but the whole context of this psalm is that these judges were not being just. read verses 2-4. it's telling them to defend the poor and fatherless and to deliver the poor and needy.
this psalm is referring to an elect few, chosen by God, to judge others according to the law.

On more than one occasion in Church we have been given this scripture as an illustration that we are gods rather than God's and children of the most High (God) ie actual offspring of Heavenly Father. The footnotes even refer to that. I think I'll stick with what I've been taught in Church and what is in the approved footnotes.

[JonboySquarepants]

haha. ok. lol, read the whole psalm. the context is obviously referring to people who are placed in a position of judgement. i think you're making a mistake in picking one verse out of a chapter or book and taking it out of the context it was meant. but, if that's what you've been taught to do, then who am i to stop you?
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also, when you say "we are gods" what do you mean by that? are you saying that we are mini gods?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Why is it obvious? Do we all not make the mistake of judging others? Are we all not told to 'judge not, that ye be not judged' Matthew 7:1 - or was the Saviour only talking to official judges there too?

I wasn't taking one verse out of context. That is not what I have been taught to do. I have read the whole psalm, and the footnotes too. The footnotes for 6a say: Man, A Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Man, Potential to Become Like Heavenly Father; Sons and Daughters of God; Spirit Creation.

Mini gods? Odd way of putting it but possibly the answer is yes. We are of the same species. We are his children. Therefore we have the chance to 'grow up' to become just like him.

That's not my interpretation. That's what the footnotes say. But if as you claim the whole psalm is only directed to those people who have the official capacity as judges then is it also saying that only they are children of the most High and only they have the potential to become like him? If you agree, as the Church teaches, that we are all sons and daughters of Heavenly Father then at what point does the psalm stop talking to one elite group of officials and start talking to the whole of humanity?

As you can see - far from taking just one verse out of context I very much take it in context not only in the whole psalm but in the whole of the gospel plan as taught in the church and accompanied by cross referencing to the approved footnotes and other indicated scriptures. That is how I have been taught to study scriptures, how I was taught in Institute. (I was too old for Seminary when I joined the Church) It's basically how I've always approached scripture study anyway though - it's just a lot easier with all the footnotes and cross references we have these days.