God has a wife in heaven???

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by newvid

Amazing that such an important matter of "doctrine" was completely left out of the body of this doctrine! It is nowhere in God's word and not even in official Mormon 'scriptures". All this speculation proves nothing. "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 cor 3:17 and "God is NOT a man, that he should lie" Num 23:19. GOd is NOT a man, nor an exalted man of anykind. He is Spirit. That is His nature. Jesus BECAME a man, but always retained His godly nature, thus he was the "God-man" at all times. That is opposite of Mormon teaching that states, as man is, god once was, as God is man may BECOME. Jesus, on the contrary BECAME man, but eternally existed as God. There is NO "god mother". However, since men and women are created in His image, I would say God contains within His nature both female and male like characteristics, since we are created in His image. SOme challenges for any willing to look into it: Answering Mormons

God is NOT a man, is correct. He is a glorified God who used to be a man. Num 23:19 does not say anything about an exalted man, so you are reading into the scripture things that are not there.

God is Spirit. I agree with that. But as John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson regarding this: what does that mean? Does it mean a great nebulous nothing that we cannot presume to comprehend? Or does it mean a being that can have other attributes, as well? Remember, Jesus was speaking to the Samaritan woman, and they worshiped many idols, as well as God. He was making a distinction between them for the woman - one is alive, the other is not. No wonder President Adams stated that "some may say I am no Christian", as he saw God in a very different way than others did - yet he was and is still considered a Christian!

The God-man concept is a fun Athanasian creed ideal, but it is nowhere in the Bible. We do agree that he was divine, but fully human. And even after his resurrection he had a body of flesh, like we do. He told his apostles to feel the marks in his hands and see "that a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see I have" (Luke 24). Suddenly, we have a problem with Trinitarian thought - how can God both have a body and not have a body?

It was Jesus himself that said he does nothing except what he has seen the Father do. Could that include becoming mortal and resurrecting into an exalted man, just as Jesus would then do?

Biblical scholars will tell you that the Bible is very anthropomorphic. Taking one or two verses out of an anthropomorphic-God Bible and basing the full nature of God on those two verses is like trying to play a piano concerto with only two keys. Something's going to be left out!

Father and Son are physically separate beings, as shown by the martyrdom of Stephen, where he looked into heaven and saw the Son standing on the right hand of the Father. Either this actually occurred, or the Bible is lying. It is because of his vision of two Gods that Stephen was stoned to death, so I'd say he was taken quite literally by those slaying him.

The early Christian Fathers before the Nicene Creed were in agreement as to the separate beings of the Godhead, though unified in thought and deed. I've listed several articles over the last few days that reference both ECF and modern Biblical scholars that tell us what the people of the Bible really taught and believed.

[newvid]

Originally Posted by a-train

The fallacy of this argument is in the notion that the LDS position is that God was once not God. The LDS position is emphatic. It is that God the Father has ALWAYS been God. Jesus has ALWAYS been God. This is not the opposite of 'Jesus became a man, but always retained His godly nature.' This is the same doctrine. Mormons believe that Jesus has always been and always will be God. The doctrine is throughout the scriptures both ancient and modern.

-a-train

That is the unfortunate mind game you use to try to fool yourself and others. Yes, apparently, you believe He was A god always, but not THE God, since you do not just have ONE TRUE God in your belief system. God the Father was a god, just as you believe you and I are "gods", part of the happy, ginormous "god family". So God is like a butterfly who goes through all these different Metamorphoses, starting as a spirit child, then entering an embryonic human body, then being born and growing normally as a man, then dying and being resurrected and becoming the exalted god, who is still man, and then the whole process begins again! That is NOT the God of the Bible and reality. Yes, God the Father and God the Son are two separate personalities within the ONE GOD. THe problem is that we try to define "GOD" according to human wisdom and understanding, which is impossible. Somehow the two (three actually) beings are individuals, yet are still one and the SAME, not separate, GOD. NOwhere, NOWHERE in the the True WORD OF GOD is there any indication, when SPEAKING OF God is HE addressed as anything other than ONE, as an individual. When I pray to God the Father, I am praying to the Son and the Holy Spirit as well, as were all the Christians in the Bible, and as were the Old Testament saints, even though the nature of God was a mystery to them at the time. Jesus in the greates, most UNIQUE act in history left His absolute oneness, HIS GLORY, in heaven with the Father to confine and limit Himself to a human body for US and then to retain that body for eternity to identify with His creation, as someone we can always look and relate to, yet his essense and glory are still connected and shared with the Godhead in a way that our finite minds cannot fully grasp. Just accept what the Word teaches!

[WillowTheWhisp]

The Word teaches that Jesus said no man cometh to the Father except through him. The Word teaches that Jesus prayed to his Father and taught us to do the same. He said we should ask the Father for blessings, in the name of the Son. He prayed to his Father asking that if it be possible the cup be taken from his, but then said 'nevertheless not my will but thine.' If he and the Father were one being why would he be praying to himself?

[AnthonyB]

Willow,

Two persons can speak to each other, however it doesn't mean it is impossible that they be one being.

[parsnips]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

God is NOT a man, is correct. He is a glorified God who used to be a man.

If you believe the Pearl of Great Price is scripture. The Book of Mormon, nor the Bible, makes this claim.

Num 23:19 does not say anything about an exalted man, so you are reading into the scripture things that are not there.

God is Spirit. I agree with that. But as John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson regarding this: what does that mean? Does it mean a great nebulous nothing that we cannot presume to comprehend? Or does it mean a being that can have other attributes, as well? Remember, Jesus was speaking to the Samaritan woman, and they worshiped many idols, as well as God. He was making a distinction between them for the woman - one is alive, the other is not. No wonder President Adams stated that "some may say I am no Christian", as he saw God in a very different way than others did - yet he was and is still considered a Christian!

If you are saying that God, being all powerful, can take on physical manifestations and has the ability to create physical things, then yes I agree God can take on many attributes. But what Christ was saying to the Samaritan woman is absolutely true, the essence of God is Spiritual.

The God-man concept is a fun Athanasian creed ideal, but it is nowhere in the Bible. We do agree that he was divine, but fully human. And even after his resurrection he had a body of flesh, like we do. He told his apostles to feel the marks in his hands and see "that a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see I have" (Luke 24). Suddenly, we have a problem with Trinitarian thought - how can God both have a body and not have a body?

There isn't a problem with Trinitarian thought here. The disciples thought they were seeing a ghost. Jesus proved to them that he was not a ghost, but living flesh. If anything, this confirms trinitarian thought. The truth that Jesus spoke that God is Spirit to the Samaritan woman, and that Spirits do not have flesh and bone. The idea of "God-man" concept is contained in the scriptures. Read the first chapter of John (In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.... And the word became flesh)... Read Isaiah 9:6, where the prophet writes about the names and characteristics about the son that was given. Trinitarian thought is contained throughout the scripture, the encapsulation of it as an idea given with specific terminology isn't.

It was Jesus himself that said he does nothing except what he has seen the Father do. Could that include becoming mortal and resurrecting into an exalted man, just as Jesus would then do?

Or could it be that Jesus was merely showing obedience to the word given concerning him?

Biblical scholars will tell you that the Bible is very anthropomorphic. Taking one or two verses out of an anthropomorphic-God Bible and basing the full nature of God on those two verses is like trying to play a piano concerto with only two keys. Something's going to be left out!

Father and Son are physically separate beings, as shown by the martyrdom of Stephen, where he looked into heaven and saw the Son standing on the right hand of the Father. Either this actually occurred, or the Bible is lying. It is because of his vision of two Gods that Stephen was stoned to death, so I'd say he was taken quite literally by those slaying him.

Stephen was stoned to death because he was a heretic to the Jews, not because he saw "two Gods"... If you really want to examine the scriptures in terms of God, one needs to look no further than Jesus's interaction with the wise Pharisee who recognized the oneness of God. This oneness is in Spirit, and Jesus's prayer about his disciples was that they would be one, like him and his father are one.

The early Christian Fathers before the Nicene Creed were in agreement as to the separate beings of the Godhead, though unified in thought and deed. I've listed several articles over the last few days that reference both ECF and modern Biblical scholars that tell us what the people of the Bible really taught and believed.

All the Nicene Creed did was to encapsulate a concept that is communicated clearly in both the old and new testaments, into a word "Trinity". That Jesus is Immanuel (God With Us), and confirmed John's words that Jesus is God in the Flesh. The Nicene Creed was in response to heretical teachings of plural Gods, similar to Mormon theology today, and it gave common language to a concept that is described over and over in scripture.

[parsnips]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

The Word teaches that Jesus said no man cometh to the Father except through him. The Word teaches that Jesus prayed to his Father and taught us to do the same. He said we should ask the Father for blessings, in the name of the Son. He prayed to his Father asking that if it be possible the cup be taken from his, but then said 'nevertheless not my will but thine.' If he and the Father were one being why would he be praying to himself?

Jesus explains it clearly in his prayers

Originally Posted by John 11:42

I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.

Jesus knows that God hears him always, because Jesus shares God's spirit. Jesus, the man, refers to himself separately than God to demonstrate that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel is the same Spirit that created and sent Jesus the man and he is one with God.

A good exercise is to ask yourself, "Do I ask myself questions? Do I hold conversations with myself?"... The very fact that you did this exercise, proves that you do. I know in my case, whenever I mess up I say "Oh Mike, why did you do that?" Do people question my sanity? Maybe ;-) But it's more like that is the way human nature demonstrates itself, we're very powerful, intelligent beings, who often search ourselves for answers. This demonstrates a characteristic we inherited from creation. Unfortunately for those who still search themselves for answers, there is none but God who contains those answers. So that is why it is so key to spread the Gospel (Good News) of Christ's resurrection from death, that Total Grace has been given, and access to God is no longer hindered by our own sin.

[AnthonyB]

I know this is an issue that shouldn't be taken too lightly, but I got thinking about the progression of God's that LDS believe in, and then that you believe God has a wife, and then the thought hit me, you'd also believe God has a mother-in-law.

[parsnips]

Lol.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by parsnips

Jesus explains it clearly in his prayers



Jesus knows that God hears him always, because Jesus shares God's spirit. Jesus, the man, refers to himself separately than God to demonstrate that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel is the same Spirit that created and sent Jesus the man and he is one with God.

A good exercise is to ask yourself, "Do I ask myself questions? Do I hold conversations with myself?"... The very fact that you did this exercise, proves that you do. I know in my case, whenever I mess up I say "Oh Mike, why did you do that?" Do people question my sanity? Maybe ;-) But it's more like that is the way human nature demonstrates itself, we're very powerful, intelligent beings, who often search ourselves for answers. This demonstrates a characteristic we inherited from creation. Unfortunately for those who still search themselves for answers, there is none but God who contains those answers. So that is why it is so key to spread the Gospel (Good News) of Christ's resurrection from death, that Total Grace has been given, and access to God is no longer hindered by our own sin.

So what you are actually saying then is that when Jesus prayed to his Father he was really talking to himself? I don't mean this to sound facetious but when God spoke from Heaven when Jesus was baptised was that just him being a ventriloquist?

I really do find that impossible to believe.

[rameumptom]

Parsnips, your logic lacks logic. Christ showing his body to his disciples proves that God has a body!!! It doesn't show that Christ pretended or manifested a pretend body. We either have a perfect Jesus-God with a body, or we have a perfect Trinity-God without a body. To claim both is to twist the scriptures until they no longer mean anything. If you are like most EVs, the Bible is God-Breathed. Well, if that is so, then you need to take it as it is written. God is anthropomorphic throughout the Bible, Jesus has a body forever, and Stephen saw God and Jesus as separate beings.
Any other interpretation would mean: God pretended to all the prophets in the Bible, Jesus lied about his body (can God lie?), and Stephen must have been smoking mushrooms just prior to being stoned.


In Trinitarian teaching, Jesus does NOT share a spirit with the Father. They are one essence. Nothing is shared, as they are both all and everything. Looks to me like you'd better talk with your preacher about your own creeds concerning the Trinity, before you attempt to defend it in a way that is incongruent with the Trinitarian creed itself. St Augustine would be ashamed at you, you heretic! ;-)