Rational Christianity

[ztodd]

Originally Posted by VoluntaryPrison

Because bringing up 'something somebody once said' is how we get things like, "the youth were generals in the war in heaven." Passing on such hearsay tends to catalyze the growth of false doctrine (like the three year old trapped by a garage door who had a vision to 'free the birdies'). You teach doctrine from the scriptures.

Hmm. Let me repeat the points you seem to have missed.

...I know there's a difference in the level of confidence you can have in scripture vs. your teacher at school.

...technically I don't think it's wrong to repeat something... if... you... can defend it...

...as long as you don't just take it for truth automatically but just bring it up as a point of discussion or to make a point (or I would add, just in the interest of making conversation).


So you see I'm not talking about teaching doctrine that you can't back up with the scriptures.

Sorry, I take words a little too technical sometimes.

[VoluntaryPrison]

...technically I don't think it's wrong to repeat something... if... you... can defend it...

And what do you intend to defend it with? I sure hope you don't intend to defend it with anything other than the scriptures/Conference talks. And if you can defend it with those, what's the point of bringing up what someone else said?

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by ztodd

Hmm. Let me repeat the points you seem to have missed.
...I know there's a difference in the level of confidence you can have in scripture vs. your teacher at school.
...technically I don't think it's wrong to repeat something... if... you... can defend it...
...as long as you don't just take it for truth automatically but just bring it up as a point of discussion or to make a point (or I would add, just in the interest of making conversation).
So you see I'm not talking about teaching doctrine that you can't back up with the scriptures.

VP was extremely clear about his concerns and you are the one missing his point.

I know when I grew up in the Church during the early '60s through mid-'80s, I was taught many things as if they were doctrine, but they were not. What astonishes me today is not that these things were not doctrine, but that I hear over and over again that these things were never taught!

But they were, by members with good intentions who had no idea what they were talking about other than what they had heard from someone else with good intentions, who had read it in Mormon Doctrine, or heard it at a Fireside, or had lunch with the First Counselor to the Bishopric, etc.

I applaud VP's concern that his children learn true doctrine, and actually asks them to make sure they are. I guarantee that SOMEONE is teaching his children, your children, or someone's children something that is not doctrinal. Not on purpose, but only because he/she THINKS it is. Faith-promoting rumors abound in the lobby, and end up in little one's ears.

And I am weary of people telling me that what I was taught was never taught. And yet I ask a family member about these things, and it is believed to still be doctrine. VP doesn't want that to happen with his children. And you mock him for this?

Sorry, I take words a little too technical sometimes.

Nonsense. You were rude.

Elphaba

[ztodd]

I didn't mean to be. Sorry.
I see your point- You have to be careful who you're repeating things to, and make sure they don't take it as doctrine. That was actually the point I was making- that if you do repeat something that's not doctrine, you just have to make sure to qualify it as such, and make sure to say it's just something you heard from your teacher or whoever it was. And perhaps you shouldn't be repeating anything to little children other than scripture stories.

[VoluntaryPrison]

if you do repeat something that's not doctrine, you just have to make sure to qualify it as such, and make sure to say it's just something you heard from your teacher or whoever it was.

This is exactly what we shouldn't be doing because eventually somebody does take it as doctrine, or our faulty memories start assigning these statements incorrect value. To further clarify, let me submit the following:

Be careful that you teach not for the word of God the commandments of men, nor the doctrines of men, nor the ordinances of men, inasmuch as you are God's messengers. Study the word of God, and preach it and not your opinions, for no man's opinion is worth a straw. Advance no principle but what you can prove, for one scriptural proof is worth ten thousand opinions.... (HC 3:395-396, emphasis added)

The above is from a letter written by the Quorum of the Twelve in July of 1830 and signed by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, John E. Page, Wilford Woodruff, John Taylor, and George A. Smith. The letter was addressed to "the Elders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to the Churches Scattered Abroad and to All the Saints."

[lilered]

Sometimes in my view what gets lost in this type of discussion over the youth and their questioning of authority or acting out is the fact that we live here on earth. As such, this earth is being ruled by Satan and his followers. The prize at stake are souls, especially those tender souls of our youth. This is why, as practicing Christians and Church members we need to be actively engaged in good work, doing everything we can in a positive way to persuade all souls to come to God.

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by VoluntaryPrison

This is exactly what we shouldn't be doing because eventually somebody does take it as doctrine, or our faulty memories start assigning these statements incorrect value. To further clarify, let me submit the following:

The above is from a letter written by the Quorum of the Twelve in July of 1830 and signed by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, John E. Page, Wilford Woodruff, John Taylor, and George A. Smith. The letter was addressed to "the Elders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to the Churches Scattered Abroad and to All the Saints."

Are you sure about that year? Brigham Young didn't join the LDS church until 1832 and John Taylor didn't come in contact with the church until 1836.

M.

[rameumptom]

I think that parents need to first arm themselves with knowledge and spiritual preparation, and then they will be able to assist their children. Too many kids, including in the LDS Church, are given a litany of teachings that may or may not be the "gospel truth." I know LDS that teach that the earth is only 6000 years old - what are their kids going to do when they go off to a college and the professors show them positive proof of the world being 4 billion years old? Suddenly, the gospel seems like a nice fairy tale or myth, and they lose faith in it.
I had the opportunity last spring to sit with my 12 year old son and see two different videos on succeeding days. The first video was the Testaments, by the Church. I asked him to think about the thoughts and emotions he would feel during the movie. The next day, we watched the anti-Mormon video Joseph Smith/Jesus Christ. I asked him which one felt more correct and brought the Spirit more into his heart. Because I wasn't hiding anti-Mormon things away from him, but giving him a chance to compare, he saw the difference between the two videos.
We then discussed the things that I felt were wrong in the second video, and how facts and the "truth" can be distorted or manipulated to make something else seem wrong.

[ztodd]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

...
I know LDS that teach that the earth is only 6000 years old - what are their kids going to do when they go off to a college and the professors show them positive proof of the world being 4 billion years old?

There is no positive proof of the world being 4 billion year old. There is what seems to be pretty solid evidence, but it's not 100% positive proof. Especially not if you believe in a God of miracles.

I do believe that the earth as we know it is about 6000 years old - I believe there was a change made in the state of the earth about 6000 years ago. The material the earth was created from, or maybe even the entire earth structure might be much older than that. That depends on what all was involved in the change of the state of the earth 6000 years ago.

We learned something interesting from the DVD from BookofMormonEvidence.org - the study of mitochondrial DNA showed that the first woman who is the ancestor of all other women lived about 6000 years ago. Now that doesn't mean the earth is also that old, but it's good evidence that the first woman Eve really did live 6000 years ago.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by VoluntaryPrison

This is exactly what we shouldn't be doing because eventually somebody does take it as doctrine, or our faulty memories start assigning these statements incorrect value. To further clarify, let me submit the following:

The above is from a letter written by the Quorum of the Twelve in July of 1830 and signed by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, John E. Page, Wilford Woodruff, John Taylor, and George A. Smith. The letter was addressed to "the Elders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to the Churches Scattered Abroad and to All the Saints."

Originally Posted by Maureen

Are you sure about that year? Brigham Young didn't join the LDS church until 1832 and John Taylor didn't come in contact with the church until 1836.

M.

Haven't you actually fallen into the trap of doing that which you advise others not to do VP?

Although we do need to be careful that what we pass on in our teaching is not contradictory to the Gospel surely there are many times when quoting what someone said, providing we have the original source, is not wrong - I am thinking of Ensign articles for example.

However, I have noticed that there are people on this forum who have said that they do not accept things which have been spoken by General Authorities. I find that very puzzling. What is the point of any conference talk if we then deny the right to quote from those people? What is the point of lesson manuals if we are only to teach from the scriptures?