Is Socialism OK with Mormons now?

[WhatMeWorry]

I titled this question that way partly to get attention but partly because I really want to get my fellow Saint's opinions on this issue. I know our Prophets used to speak openly about the dangers and evils of Socialism at one time (particularly President Benson when he was the Secy. of Agriculture and President McKay when Soviet Communism was at it's peak) but it seems that now we are a worldwide church we have gone pretty quiet on the issue.

Here's what I am getting at.

I went to the Salt Lake Tea Party on April 15 and I was a bit surprised to find that as an active Latter Day Saint, I was in the minority. Most of the people I talked to at the event and since were not LDS. So, I got curious and started asking around and I have been surprised to find that most of the members of my ward that I asked (in Salt Lake County) have no compelling concern about the current direction America is heading and several said they actually agree with the government take over of the banks, health care, the auto industry, etc. because "corporate greed has gotten so bad."

I also get a very common response from many LDS family and friends that they have given up entirely, there is no hope for America and that they are just waiting for end to come.

None of these LDS Americans have any interest in protesting or even calling public officials or participating in the political process at all other than to vote.

Needless to say, I am troubled.

I want to know how prevalent these ambivalent views on socialism are among other LDS people. Any comments?

[deseretgov]

I am apalled at the direction the government is taking. There are much better solutions than having the government take over businesses.

But the problem with the government is not the government. It's us. We are simply sitting around and letting them rob us of our freedoms and future.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by WhatMeWorry

I went to the Salt Lake Tea Party on April 15 and I was a bit surprised to find that as an active Latter Day Saint, I was in the minority. Most of the people I talked to at the event and since were not LDS. So, I got curious and started asking around and I have been surprised to find that most of the members of my ward that I asked (in Salt Lake County) have no compelling concern about the current direction America is heading and several said they actually agree with the government take over of the banks, health care, the auto industry, etc. because "corporate greed has gotten so bad."

Shocking. I work in the health care industry and was not aware I had been taken over.

Can you tell me what I don't know?

[Palerider]

Originally Posted by Snow

Shocking. I work in the health care industry and was not aware I had been taken over.

Can you tell me what I don't know?

You mean you didn't get the "Memo"......oh no...

[trulykiwi]

Socialism to me is satans counterfeit version of the law of consecration. Socialism can also be a PC word for communism. The redistribution of wealth by the richest of the richest can only lead to their control, power and greed on a world wide scale of us the people. They are not righteous enough to stand in control.

The only concern I have is that governments are a puppet in bringing this about. I guess prophecy has to come true somehow though or how else could the beast rise on such a grand scale!

But the church will proceed and be safe that is all we need to know. No wonder the GA's don't talk about it (governments, socialism, conspiracy) it would just cause trouble where trouble could be deterred.

[gaspah]

I have a democratic socialist political outlook. I beleive in welfare (with strict qualifications, government shouldn't reward lazyness), healthcare etc etc but I still believe in free enterprise just that the higher earners should be taxed more for the social benefit of the less fortunate. The division of the rich and the poor is appauling, there are people out there working two jobs but cannot afford their rent, whilst others live a life of privelege without any effort or works of their own.

People should not have to live in fear of getting sick, they should not have to live in poor health, not when there is enough wealth in the world that there is no reason they need to. Its all about having charity for others, but instead everyone seems more concerned with their own material possession rather than the wellbeing of their fellow man. Us LDS don't question paying our tithing, but when we can do something that costs us far less that can benefit every poor family in the country the price is just too great.

Just don't forget the democracy part, thats where the problem lays. The problem isn't with public healthcare, rather with oppression and fascism.

I personally beleive an irrational fear of socialism is just remnants of cold war propaganda, glad we don't have that fear here in Aussieland.

[WhatMeWorry]

Snow and Pale Rider, Oh I get it. You are being ironic. No, I am not being judgemental if you are LDS and you think socialism is Christlike. That appears to one valid side of the argument. Snow I didn't mean imply that health care has been socialized, I said directionally there seems to be a good deal of sentiment among even LDS people that universal health care is OK and that if the banks are having problems its OK for government to take control of them. Same thing for the auto industry. I just want to see what most LDS people think these days. I just seems like there is quite a diversity of opinion now. It's a lot different than when President Benson was warning about the dangers of government taking charge of the things citizens should do for themselves.

[Wingnut]

The problem with President Benson's statements is that he was so heavily influenced by his life in politics that you really have to pay attention to the context in which the statements were given. It wasn't always a doctrinal context.

[Maxel]

The biggest reason I can think for the prophets changing the subject matter of their talks is that the hidden evils of the day change, and what the people of God need to hear change. Unfortunately, the biggest challenge America faces is not a slow decline into socialism (although unfortunately it's happening), but a slow decline into rampant legalized and socially accepted immorality (much worse than right now). The god-fearing people of this nation have been slowly backed up against the wall of faith over the past few generations: I fear it will fall to ours to make a stand for the doctrines of the Gospel against a morally degraded society.

In preparation, the Saints need to hear about moral living and a godly walk instead of economic and political truth. In my opinion, the Saints that are not paying attention to the government are shirking their God-given duty to be good citizens, but what can one do? All spiritual gifts are not given to all people. There will be those who are foreordained to be active in the government and concerned about the economy, and those who are foreordained not to do so.

Then, you get the lazies who just don't care. Those, we can equate to the 5 virgins who kept their lamps only half filled and were unprepared. Unfortunately, I've heard that the ratio of cultural Mormons to true blue Mormons in Utah is much higher than in other areas.

[WhatMeWorry]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

The problem with President Benson's statements is that he was so heavily influenced by his life in politics that you really have to pay attention to the context in which the statements were given. It wasn't always a doctrinal context.

Wingnut, I have been reading some of the writings of the Prophets of the Church about Socialism. So are you saying that the concept's President Benson taught like below are not as valid today because the context of the world has changed?

Ezra Taft Benson: THE REAL CAUSE OF AMERICAN PROSPERITY

Why, then, do Americans bake more bread, manufacture more shoes and assemble more TV sets than Russians do? They do so precisely because our government does NOT guarantee these things. If it did, there would be so many accompanying taxes, controls, regulations and political manipulations that the productive genius that is America’s would soon be reduced to the floundering level of waste and inefficiency now found behind the Iron Curtain. As Henry David Thoreau explained:

"This government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. IT does not educate. THE CHARACTER INHERENT IN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAS DONE ALL THAT HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED; AND IT WOULD HAVE DONE SOMEWHAT MORE, IF THE GOVERNMMENT HAD NOT SOMETIMES GO IN ITS WAY. For government is an expedient by which men would fain succeed in letting one another alone; and, as has been said, when it is most expedient, the governed are most let alone by it." (Quoted by Clarence B. Carson, THE AMERICAN TRADITION, p. 100; P.P.S.N., p.171)

In 1801 Thomas Jefferson, in his First Inaugural Address, said:

"With all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow citizens – a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it had earned." (Works 8:3)

A FORMULA FOR PROSPERITY

The principle behind this American philosophy can be reduced to a rather simple formula:

1. Economic security for all is impossible without widespread abundance.
2. Abundance is impossible without industrious and efficient production.
3. Such production is impossible without energetic, willing and eager labor.
4. This is not possible without incentive.
5. Of all forms of incentive – the freedom to attain a reward for one’s labors is the most sustaining for most people. Sometimes called THE PROFIT MOTIVE, it is simply the right to plan and to earn and to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
6. This profit motive DIMINISHES as government controls, regulations and taxes INCREASE to deny the fruits of success to those who produce.
7. Therefore, any attempt THROUGH GOVERNMENTAL INTERVENTION to redistribute the material rewards of labor can only result in the eventual destruction of the productive base of society, without which real abundance and security for more than the ruling elite is quite impossible.

AN EXAMPLE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF DISREGARDING THESE PRINCIPLES

We have before us currently a sad example of what happens to a nation which ignores these principles. Former FBI agent, Dan Smoot, succinctly pointed this out on his broadcast number 649, dated January 29, 1968, as follows:

"England was killed by an idea: the idea that the weak, indolent and profligate must be supported by the strong, industrious, and frugal – to the degree that tax-consumers will have a living standard comparable to that of taxpayers; the idea that government exists for the purpose of plundering those who work to give the product of their labor to those who do not work.

The economic and social cannibalism produced by this communist-socialist idea will destroy any society which adopts it and clings to it as a basic principle – ANY society."

THE POWER OF TRUE LIBERTY FROM IMPROPER GOVERNMENTAL INTERFERENCE

Nearly two hundred years ago, Adam Smith, the Englishman, who understood these principles very well, published his great book, THE WEALTH OF NATIONS, which contains this statement:

"The natural effort of every individual to better his own condition, when suffered to exert itself with freedom and security, is so powerful a principle, that it is alone, and without any assistance, not only capable of carrying on the society to wealth and prosperity, but of surmounting a hundred impertinent obstructions with which the folly of human laws too often encumbers its operations; though the effect of these obstructions is always more or less either to encroach upon its freedom, or to diminish its security." (Vol. 2, Book 4, Chapt. 5, p. 126)

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE NEEDY?

On the surface this may sound heartless and insensitive to the needs of those less fortunate individuals who are found in any society, no matter how affluent. "What about the lame, the sick and the destitute? Is an often-voice question. Most other countries in the world have attempted to use the power of government to meet this need. Yet, in every case, the improvement has been marginal at best and has resulted in the long run creating more misery, more poverty, and certainly less freedom than when government first stepped in. As Henry Grady Weaver wrote, in his excellent book, THE MAINSPRING OF HUMAN PROGRESS:

"Most of the major ills of the world have been caused by well-meaning people who ignored the principle of individual freedom, except as applied to themselves, and who were obsessed with fanatical zeal to improve the lot of mankind-in-the-mass through some pet formula of their own….THE HARM DONE BY ORDINARY CRIMINALS, MURDERES, GANGSTERS, AND THIEVES IS NEGLIGIBLE IN COMPARISON WITH THE AGONY INFLICTED UPON HUMAN BEINGS BY THE PROFESSIONAL ‘DO-GOODERS’, who attempt to set themselves up as gods on earth and who would ruthlessly force their views on all others – with the abiding assurance that the end justifies the means."