Mormon America

[talisyn]

Originally Posted by Moksha

Talisyn, where do you stand on the Code of Hammurabi?

That set of laws was awesome too, and proved to me that people have an innate sense of justice no matter what time period. Of course this is depending on an accurate translation

[changed]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

The White Horse Prophecy has been denounced, or at least parts of it. From the White Horse Prophecy, by George Cobabe: pg. 6:


Elphaba

Here you go - the link was not actually to the WHP - but to those parts which were discussed and agreed upon in GC's of the past:

The Saints Will Yet Save the Constitution-When the day comes in which the Kingdom of God will bear rule, the flag of the United States will proudly flutter unsullied on the flagstaff of liberty and equal rights, without a spot to sully its fair surface; the glorious flag our fathers have bequeathed to us will then be unfurled to the breeze by those who have power to hoist it aloft and defend its sanctity. (JOD 2:317).

How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass. 12:204.

When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the "Mormon" Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. 2:182. (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, selected and arranged by John A. Widtsoe, p.360, 361)

--

The Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time "this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction" (Journal of Discourses, 7:15). It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.

If the Gentiles on this land reject the word of God and conspire to overthrow liberty and the Constitution, their doom is fixed, and they "shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant" (1 Nephi 14:6; 3 Nephi 21:11, 14, 21; D&C 84:114-15, 117). (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 618-619 & God, Family, Country, p. 345.)

--

Now, these are the commandments of God, the principles contained in these commandments of the great Eternal are the principles that underly the Constitution of our country, and all just laws. Joseph Smith, the prophet, was inspired to affirm and ratify this truth, and he further predicted that the time would come, when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints, above all other people in the world, would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty(Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 403 & Conference Report, October 1912, p. 11)

--

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so.(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 15, Brigham Young, 1854)

Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings towards the Government. I answer, they are first-rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain; and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the "Mormon" Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it.

We love the Constitution of our country; it is all we could ask; though in some few instances there might be some amendments made which would better it.(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 182, Brigham Young, 1855)
--

The Prophet Joseph told us that he saw the day when even the Constitution of the United States would be torn and hang as by a thread. But, thank the Lord, the thread did not break. He saw the day when this people would be a balance of power to come to its defense. (Conference Report, October 1928)

I believe that it is the destiny of the Latter-day Saints to support the Constitution of the United States. The Prophet Joseph Smith is alleged to have said—and I believe he did say it—that the day would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread. But he saw that the thread did not break, thank the Lord, and that the Latter-day Saints would become a balance of power, with others, to preserve that Constitution.(Conference Report, April 1933)

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You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread, or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance.( Conference Report, October 1942)

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But beyond all that, the Latter-day Saints have a responsibility, that may be better understood when we recall the prophecy of Joseph Smith who declared that "the time would come when ( the destiny and ) the Constitution of these United States would hang as it were by a thread, and that this people, the sons of Zion, would rise up and save it from threatened destruction." (Conference Report, April 1942)

--

How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass. When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the "Mormon Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. . . . if it is sustained on this land of Joseph, it will be done by us and our posterity. (Conference Report, p. 171)

--

The Historians Corner, BYU Studies, Vol. 19, No. 3, p. 391-392

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by changed

Here you go - the link was not actually to the WHP - but to those parts which were discussed and agreed upon in GC's of the past:

I see that.

Next time you link to a site with a misleading title, you should let your readers know about it beforehand.

Elphaba

[bluedreams]

Originally Posted by Moksha

What sayest thou?

Excuse what is about to come. I'm an art person, love art, and do it myself. So I often have strong feelings towards the topic of art and its representation.

I hate, hate hate hate HATE this painting. This isn't much of an understatement, I litterally get a headache from the youtube video that was posted with it. The first time I saw this paint, it creeped me out. The second time I decidred to really look at it and figure out why this bothered me more than the usual painting. It's just ridiculously propagandic. Not specifically in the american constitution sense (which it is quite a bite), but an america conservative right leaning sense. I'm not a fan of overly emotive realism (kitch art) to begin with, but this is on my list of paintings that surely take the cake for me. It's up there with an old premortal existance painting, a swindle of christ's dead body, and another recent piece by Dewey.

Bet it sells a lot.

Eeyup, sure did. It was my job to help them pick out frames for it.


whew....well that's mostly out of my system. Ending rant now.
With luv,
BD

[Moksha]

Originally Posted by bluedreams

I hate, hate hate hate HATE this painting. This isn't much of an understatement, I literally get a headache from the you tube video that was posted with it. The first time I saw this paint, it creeped me out. The second time I decided to really look at it and figure out why this bothered me more than the usual painting. It's just ridiculously propagandic.

BD

Hey Bluedreams, perhaps we will need to hold back in using it to sell ward bonds. We do not need ridiculous propaganda for that task!

After reading your response, it is easier to understand why the Supreme Court Justice in that painting is weeping. Did not mean to cause you distress.

Hey, did you see the Youtube video of Glen Beck analyzing the art and architecture at Rockefeller Center? Now that was really something. He knows the truth aout those capitalists since reading Cleon Skousen.

YouTube - Glenn Beck Finds "Communist" Art At NBC's Headquarters

.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by bluedreams

I hate, hate hate hate HATE this painting.

BD, I'm curious as to what you think of this piece of "art." Oh, and don't forget to read the words while looking at the art.



Guess where that ghastly image comes from? Page 737 of Cleon Skousen's other book out there making waves, called The Making of America, and it is full of vile racism.

Other examples included in Skousen's book:

Abolitionists at fault for delaying emancipation. "Gradual emancipation by legislative action was talked about in the South for two generations after the Declaration of Independence. A fierce contest, waged over this issue in the legislature of Virginia as late as 1832, was lost by the emancipationists largely because of resentment against the interference of Northern abolitionists and terror over the Nat Turner insurrection of the preceding year.


"Had the result been different the effect upon the border states, where slavery at best was of questionable value, may well be imagined. By too militant action the abolitionists themselves did much to perpetuate slavery in the northern group of the Southern states." [The Making of America, page 730]

Newly sold slaves "usually a cheerful lot." "The tendency was to sell families as units, if for no other reason [than] to keep the slaves contented. The gangs in transit were usually a cheerful lot, though the presence of a number of the more vicious type sometimes made it necessary for them all to go in chains. At the other extreme, when the Central of Georgia railroad company in 1858 equipped a Negro sleeping car to assist in the slave trade it set a standard not always maintained in a later generation. When on the block, the slave was as likely to hinder as to help in his sale. Some, out of a vain conceit in bringing a high price, would boast of their physical prowess, in which case an unwary purchaser would likely be cheated. Others would malinger, because of a grudge against owners or traders or in order to bring a low price and be put at less tiring labor. Dealers, also, adopted the tricks of horse traders to make their merchants more attractive -- the greasiest Negro was generally considered the healthiest." [The Making of America, pages 731-732]

Slaves hampered efficiency of white labor. "In the management of slave labor the gang system predominated. The great majority of owners, having at the most only one or two families of Negroes, had to work alongside their slaves and set the pace for them. Slavery did not make white labor unrespectable, but merely inefficient. The slave had a deliberateness of motion which no amount of supervision could quicken. If the owner got ahead of the gang they all would shirk behind his back." [The Making of America, page 732]

White schoolchildren would "envy the freedom" of "colored playmates." "Slave food, even if monotonous, was plentiful. Corn bread and bacon were the mainstays, with plenty of fruit and vegetables in season. In hog-killing time, countenances were unusually greasy. Clothing also was on the par with that of the poorer white people and no less adequate in proportion to the climate than that of Northern laborers. If [negro children] ran naked it was generally from choice, and when the white boys had to put on shoes and go away to school they were likely to envy the freedom of their colored playmates. The color line began to appear at about that time." [The Making of America, pages 732-733]

Cruelty rare, slave owners "the worst victims." "Excessive toil occurred only where the masters or overseers were feeble witted as well as brutal. A persistent rumor among abolitionists was that sugar planters followed a policy of working slaves to death in seven years as a matter of economy. The persons spreading such reports were as ignorant of Negro nature as they were of conditions in the sugar mills. Furthermore, they overrated the ability of the masters to know how to kill a slave in the given time instead of leaving him a broken-down burden to the plantation. When they set out to prove the accusation they returned with no evidence, but convinced that the practice existed in some obscure region which they had not succeeded in ferreting out. Harriet Martineau, after watching slaves go through the motions of work without tiring themselves, considered the planters as models of patience and observed that new slave owners from Europe or the North were prone to be the most severe. Numerous observers, of various shades of opinion on slavery, agreed that brutality was no more common in the black belt than among free labor elsewhere, and that the slave owners were the worst victims of the system." [The Making of America, pages 733-734

Broken marriages "one the blessings of slavery." "Negro weddings were attended by white people who joined in the celebration. If the marriages were of a rather impermanent nature, that fact was frequently considered as 'one of the blessings of slavery.' At church and camp meetings the Negroes, in their own section of the building or tabernacle, enjoyed the experiences immensely. They could shout without restraint, while the masters, in order to preserve their dignity, had to repress their emotions. It made little difference if religion was thrown off soon after the camp meeting dissolved -- backsliding was pleasant, and there was always a chance to get intoxicatingly converted again." [The Making of America, page 734]

"Negro preachers" warranted surveillance. "The worst offenses of slaves against the white men's code were rebellion and running away. Drunkenness, stealing, hiding out from work, personal filthiness, carelessness of property, fighting, and general brutality had various positions in the scale of misdemeanors. Negro preachers often bred discontent by their unnecessary restraint upon pleasure, and, if itinerants, had to be watched closely for abolitionist or seditious doctrines." [The Making of America, page 734]

Southern life a "nightmare" of fear -- for white people. "The constant fear of slave rebellion made life in the South a nightmare, especially in regions where conspiracies were of frequent occurrence. The extermination of white civilization in Santo Domingo was followed in the nineteenth century by several other bloody outbursts in the West Indies, which never failed to cause ominous forebodings in America. [...]
"In the nineteenth century, conspiracies headed by George Boxley and Denmark Vessey in South Carolina (1816 and 1822), and the Nat Turner insurrection in Virginia in 1831 were the outstanding examples. Boxley, a Negro with a sort of John Brown intelligence, escaped while six of his followers were executed. The Vessey plot, prematurely revealed, resulted in 130 arrests which culminated in the hangings of 35, deportation fo nearly as many, and imprisonment of 4 white participants. Nat Turner, a mystic type of Baptist preacher, set out to annihilate white civilization, and succeeded to the extent of 10 men, 14 women, and 31 children. He was finally hanged with several of his followers, but the after-effects of the uprising were deplorable." [The Making of America, page 735]

Southern slavery better than Northern freedom. "The free Negro had rather more opportunity for economic advancement in the South than in the North. The Southerner was bothered by the race problem but knew how to handle the individual Negro, while the Northerner professed a benign interest in the race so long as its members were as remote as possible. Neither section was willing to grant equal rights in education, suffrage, or legal standing, while many states of all sections had laws prohibiting the immigration of free Negroes. Abraham Lincoln could not have maintained his standing in the Republican party had he not been a staunch supporter of the Illinois exclusion law and a firm opponent of political and social equality. It was most difficult for a Negro to get a job in the North, except at the most loathsome of tasks. Some Negroes, having been freed and sent to any Northern state which would receive them, became so miserable as to solicit a return to slavery." [The Making of America, pages 735-736]

Emancipated slaves hated because of Civil War and "carpetbag regime." "This seemingly hopeless situation was by 1860 approaching a solution which was not allowed to materialize. The limits of slavery expansion either by purchase or conquest had been reached. The natural increase of slave population in a few decades would have checked the opportunities for profitable sale. It seems futile to believe otherwise than that, before the end of the century, the diminishing returns from slave ownership would have driven slave prices so low that, in self-defense, owners would have made tenants of their laborers, thrown them upon their own resources, and placed dependence upon rentals for profits. It likewise seems reasonable to believe that by this solution the Negro might have escaped the revulsion of feeling against him that resulted from forcible emancipation and the carpetbag regime." [The Making of America, page 737]

The end picture-caption. At the end of Skousen's extensive quotation of Shannon, The Making of America features an illustration of two dark, manacled hands with the accompanying caption: "In some ways, the economic system of slavery chained the slave owners almost as much as the slaves." [The Making of America, page 737]

The Making of America is making the rounds now among the extreme far-right, and I'm sure it's doing very well hanging onto The Leap's and Beck's coattails.

Elphaba
　

[changed]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

BD, I'm curious as to what you think of this piece of "art." Oh, and don't forget to read the words while looking at the art.



Guess where that ghastly image comes from? Page 737 of Cleon Skousen's other book out there making waves, called The Making of America, and it is full of vile racism.

How is that racist?

10 wickedness never was happiness.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 41:10)

slave owners were cahined with sin and wickedness... do you agree that wickedness never was happiness? Do you think that slave owners were happy joyful people? Do you think they felt no guilt, that they felt no fear of uprising? What is racist about pointing out the fact that slave owners were a miserable unhappy lot of people?

Other examples included in Skousen's book:

Abolitionists at fault for delaying emancipation. "Gradual emancipation by legislative action was talked about in the South for two generations after the Declaration of Independence. A fierce contest, waged over this issue in the legislature of Virginia as late as 1832, was lost by the emancipationists largely because of resentment against the interference of Northern abolitionists and terror over the Nat Turner insurrection of the preceding year.

"Had the result been different the effect upon the border states, where slavery at best was of questionable value, may well be imagined. By too militant action the abolitionists themselves did much to perpetuate slavery in the northern group of the Southern states." [The Making of America, page 730]

Who is to say this was not true? Can you prove this was not true? Have you seen the movie "Amazing Grace" - across the ocean, they did not have to fight a war to end slavery. They did it without bloodshed through legistlature. Whose to say we could not have done the same thing?

Newly sold slaves "usually a cheerful lot." "The tendency was to sell families as units, if for no other reason [than] to keep the slaves contented. The gangs in transit were usually a cheerful lot, though the presence of a number of the more vicious type sometimes made it necessary for them all to go in chains. At the other extreme, when the Central of Georgia railroad company in 1858 equipped a Negro sleeping car to assist in the slave trade it set a standard not always maintained in a later generation. When on the block, the slave was as likely to hinder as to help in his sale. Some, out of a vain conceit in bringing a high price, would boast of their physical prowess, in which case an unwary purchaser would likely be cheated. Others would malinger, because of a grudge against owners or traders or in order to bring a low price and be put at less tiring labor. Dealers, also, adopted the tricks of horse traders to make their merchants more attractive -- the greasiest Negro was generally considered the healthiest." [The Making of America, pages 731-732]

Have you read Victor Frankl's stuff?
Dr. Viktor Frankl stated: “We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of … human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, [and] to choose one’s own way [of life].” (Man’s Search for Meaning, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1963, p. 104.)

are you trying to suggest that African Americans were unable to "to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, [and] to choose one’s own way" ? I hope not. I think African Americans are a people of great strength, a people who are strong enough to choose their own way, no matter what.

Slaves hampered efficiency of white labor. "In the management of slave labor the gang system predominated. The great majority of owners, having at the most only one or two families of Negroes, had to work alongside their slaves and set the pace for them. Slavery did not make white labor unrespectable, but merely inefficient. The slave had a deliberateness of motion which no amount of supervision could quicken. If the owner got ahead of the gang they all would shirk behind his back." [The Making of America, page 732]

You don't think they rebelled? What a great form of passive resistance - refusing to do the work, or at least, refusing to do it quickly.


etc. etc. etc.
I do not find these quotes to be racist. sorry.

[bytor2112]

I don't find the Skousen comments racist either or the illustration. The painting is.....odd, weird....I wouldn't buy it.

[talisyn]

What I find incredibly sad is that someone thought the lot of slave owners was at least equal to that of their human property.

[changed]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

I don't find the Skousen comments racist either

For some strange reason, some people think it is racist to portray another as anything other than a spineless helpless victim… I, on the other hand, think portraying another as a spineless helpless victim is the most racist thing you can do.