September Dawn....mountain Meadows Massacre Movie

[mountainrider]

First Big Love, then a horrible "documentary" on PBS and now the hollyweirdos are at it again with their latest hitjob on Mitt Romney's candidacy for presidency. think about it........nobody has really given the MMM the time of day on a large scale for a century and a half and now a movie comes out about it a few months before the primaries begin? nicely done, lefties......

http://www.septemberdawn.net/

[Aphrodite]

What is the mountain meadows massacre??

[mountainrider]

What is the mountain meadows massacre??
[/b]

read:

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu...000176f620a____

[CrimsonKairos]

In fairness, I believe the movie has been in production for about two years. So it's not like Hollywood whipped up a movie when Romney announced his candidacy in Dec '06 or Jan '07.

However, it may not have been a secret that he was going to run and there may have been another reason to make the movie besides just "telling a gripping story."

In my opinion...Hollywood's not that smart. They just got dumb lucky, but I seriously don't think it'll affect Mitt's campaign.

[drjme]

Lol... you think this is a stab at a politicians candidacy?

How about a tool to create animosity against LDS members, an attack on the church, a tool to disillusion members who don't have a strong testimony, To label LDS's as extremists that we would ever have allowed such a monster to be a leader of the church. the timing maybe a hit at his candidacy, but the intentions of it are far worse:

quote:
"That the 1857 massacre occurred on a Sept. 11 only added to the significance Cain found in the event: At a time when fundamentalist extremism seems to dominate political dialogue around the world, revisiting murders that occurred for religious reasons, he thought, seemed timely. "You start asking yourself the question," said Cain, a soft-spoken and often dryly funny filmmaker of 62. "What makes a young kid - of any faith, in any part of the world - strap a bomb on his back and walk into a school, or a mosque, or get on a bus full of innocent people, and blow himself and them all up? You ask yourself that question, and as you do, you start looking around and all of a sudden, it's what religious fanaticism can turn into.""

Thats from the PDF attached to the website. unassumingly comparing mormon 'fundamentalist extremists' to
Suicide bombers?

persecution will increase...

[Elphaba]

First Big Love, then a horrible "documentary" on PBS and now the hollyweirdos are at it again with their latest hitjob on Mitt Romney's candidacy for presidency. think about it........nobody has really given the MMM the time of day on a large scale for a century and a half and now a movie comes out about it a few months before the primaries begin? nicely done, lefties......

http://www.septemberdawn.net/[/b]

September Dawn was written by a Born Again Christian who was riding along in her car one day and had a "vision" of a wagon train in the 1800s crossing the plains that was ambushed and killed. She claims she knew nothing about the MMM when she wrote the book. Right.

Additionally, if you've ever heard Jon Voight, who plays one of the murders, speak about his personal politics, he is as right wing as they come.

Why is it everytime somebody does something Mormons disagree with it's automatically assumed those "nasty, conniving liberals" did it to persecute the Church, and worse, it's going to work! Perspective, people!

BTW, I believe September Dawn will be a blip on the map and nobody will notice it. I think members of the Church are being overly sensitive to it as it's a poorly made movie and nobody's going to be interested in it.

As far as Romney's campaign, it will have no effect on it whatsoever, except to those who have already have a huge bias against him anyway. Those who are undecided will realize it happened long ago and has nothing to do with his politics today.

I don't doubt that a very few, ignorant morons will use the film as a decider, but they will be statistically insignificant. It's ridiculous to think they are going to bring Romney's campaign down.

Elphaba

[bunnzy]

I had never heard of this massacre. My eyes are being opened even more to the fact that although the gospel is perfect, the people are not.

This massacre, and the quote that relates it to suicide bombers makes me think of a documentary i watched this week on the Peoples Temple. I never knew about it until i watched the doco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

It is sad what religious extremism can do. I cry for the children.

[Elphaba]

I had never heard of this massacre. My eyes are being opened even more to the fact that although the gospel is perfect, the people are not.

This massacre, and the quote that relates it to suicide bombers makes me think of a documentary i watched this week on the Peoples Temple. I never knew about it until i watched the doco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

It is sad what religious extremism can do. I cry for the children.
[/b]

I've studied the massacre quite a lot and the reasons it happened are extremely complex. Rather than try to explain it, I believe this account does a very good job.

Mountain Meadows Massacre

It's still not complete, and if I have the inclination later, I might add some of the puzzle pieces.

There are also some books you could read:

1. Mountain Meadows Massacre by Juanite Brooks
2. Blood of the Prophets by Will Bagley

There is a new book coming out by Richard Turley, Glen Leonard and another author whose name I can't recall. They have connections with the Church and have spent literally years going through documents. It should be an exhaustive study on the massacre, and everyone into Mormon history can't wait to see it. Hopefully it will give us new insight into the massacre, which is the darkest period in Mormon history.

Elphaba

[Doctor Steuss]

1. Mountain Meadows Massacre by Juanit[a] Brooks
2. Blood of the Prophets by Will Bagley
[/b]

When reading Bagley, keep yourself grounded and know that although his facts are good (other than the journal entry he deliberately altered to create fabricated evidence... "grain" to "allies"), some of his interpretation of the facts and conclusions aren't so good. I haven't seen any substantiated evidence for the rumor, but supposedly he responded to an ad in a paper to "pin it on Brigham." As I have only seen this rumor come from the LDS camp, take it for what it’s worth (we all know that we like to create myths and rumors).

There is a new book coming out by Richard Turley, Glen Leonard and another author whose name I can't recall. [/b]

Ronald Walker is the other person. Latest I got from Scott Lloyd is that volume 1 should be coming out the first of next year (hopefully there won't be any more delays). The first volume will take it up to the eve of the massacre.

Richard Turley gave a little dilly at the recent FAIR conference that should be up on the website soon. A brief overview of his presentation can be found in the last Church News. He basically went into the social/psychological aspects of what could have caused good people to commit such a horrific act.

[Elphaba]

When reading Bagley, keep yourself grounded and know that although his facts are good (other than the journal entry he deliberately altered to create fabricated evidence... "grain" to "allies"), some of his interpretation of the facts and conclusions aren't so good. I haven't seen any substantiated evidence for the rumor, but supposedly he responded to an ad in a paper to "pin it on Brigham." As I have only seen this rumor come from the LDS camp, take it for what it’s worth (we all know that we like to create myths and rumors).[/b]

Yes, I know. I hear the same things about him every time I recommend him, and I'm not saying they are wrong.

But every historian who has read him, once they are done citing these caveats, then goes on to say it is still a book worth reading. His newfound documentation is always lauded, and even Turley, on the LDS.org site, recommends him.

And, of course, he gets no support because of his vews about BY, so what do you expect? It's classic FARMs treatment to me, i.e., he could have BYs journal, in his own handwriting, admitting he ordered the massacre, and DCP would claim Bagley is a homosexual, then insist he didn't out him. :P

Having said that, I don't doubt all of the cautions are warranted; but I still think the good outweighs the bad, and if know you nothing about the MMM, it's a fine source.
--------------------------
I am eagerly awaiting Turley, Walker and Leonard's book. However, my confidence in Leonard was dulled a bit when I read the following in a Deseret News story.

"He also addressed a question many have asked the authors over the years. Because they accept Brigham Young as a prophet, could they accept information that indicted him as the instigator if they found it?

Leonard: "We kept our minds open to all the eventualities," he said, adding they initially overlooked the significant role that Isaac C. Haight played in ordering an LDS militia to carry out the massacre. Ultimately, "we put him in the responsible chair many have said Brigham Young occupied."

Initially overlooked him??? You'd have to be blind to overlook the significance of the role Isaac Haight played in the massacre. This stunned me when I read it. I'm sorry, but I thought, after all these gazillion years these men have been working on this book, it is absurd that they would suddenly have a lightbulb go off, and say "Wait! It was Haight!"

Just one reading of Brook's book is enough to know the Haight was a primary suspect. Therefore, I am worried about the spin that is coming. You know FARMs is going to give it positive reviews, no matter what. And hopefully it will deserve them.

But that silly little slipup, that the average person, especially Mormon, who knows nothing about MMM would never catch, has me very skeptical.

Wait! It's Haight!

Elphaba