Daughter won't let the grandkids visit

[grandpalw]

I am dumbstruct over this. Have prayed, pondered and am at a loss. My oldest daughter has decided that my wife and I won't be allowed to be with our only grandchildren thus far in our home because my daughter feels there is too much contention in our home. We have 6 children. Two attended BYU, a third is attending Weber State. Two oldest daughters were married in the Temple. I felt my wife and I have been good parents, but we are not perfect. I will be the first to admit there is bickering and contention in our home. It especially is present when my oldest children return for holidays. Three remaining at home still fight but far less than when six were there. She has decided that her home will have no contention, no raised voices, no fighting. As a parent, I do not tell my adult children how to live thier lives or raise their children, regardless of how I may feel. But now, because she feels our home is a bad influence on my newborn and three year old grandsons, they will not visit our home anymore. Only when there is no more contention in our home according to her will she allow them to again but she says she won't return to our home.
Do I have a right to be hurt my this. My wife is beside herself. She has lived her live so she could spend time with her grandchildren and now that they have moved closer to our home, they tell us this. I know this will raise alot of questions. The bishop and stake presidents children spend alot of time in our home. We know both of their families well and have had them in our home. I have asked my daughter and her husband (whom we love dearly) to write letter outlining the exact behaviors that they feel so strongly about. They will only tell us on the phone so far what those are. They are that familiy members put one another down. That I show disrespect for my wife, which I have been guilty of but we have worked on very hard with counseling. Yes we are not the "perfect" family, but I never thought we were bad enough to be deemed unfit for our grandchildren. All of our children thus far are active in the Church. I could go on but time requires that I go. Any comments will be taken without offense. Please help guide as to how we get through this.

[Misshalfway]

This one is a toughy.

I am sorry that this is happening. I can't really know from your post how serious the situation is. I can't tell if your daughter is just exasperated and trying send a strong message or if she is really serious about cutting your out of her life. Perhaps she is a new mother and maybe she is still trying on hats with regards to how she needs to raise her kids.

I am just going to assume that you are like other families I have known.

I don't blame her for wanting put downs to stop. I don't like being put down. Through out the years, my inlaws have made very subtle putdowns part of their everyday discourse to me. It hurts and it makes me question my worth and it compromises the trust I have in them when they do take my kids as I am fairly sure they disregard my wishes at will.

I can't see a resolution with this situation that doesn't include some open, understanding, validating dialogue. It doesn't sound like you are in denial about the family dysfunction. That is good. Sounds like you are already trying to open the communication. I like the letter idea. What if you took her to lunch and made it just a listening lunch where you only go to fact find and validate. No defending. Then maybe she could agree to listen to your side of things.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to have some prayers. God softens hearts and he changes enemies into friends.

Good luck. I think this thing will work itself out in time. At least I hope so for all of you.

[dazed-and-confused]

just thinking out loud.....
1. possibly, because she grew up in that environment, she wants to raise her kids differently.....not an uncommon approach to parenting.
2. i wonder if this is a joint decision...that is to say, i wonder how much, if any, influence her husband has had in this decision.
3. there is a psychological theory that states we all marry our parents, in one aspect or other (women marry men that in their mind models their father, men, their mother) and what,if any, impact this theory may or may not have in this situation.
4. i dont know of anyone who would not have hurt feelings over this.

in the meantime, keep praying and try to be patient. allow your daughter the time to "figure things out" a bit better.
a home without contention is a difficult goal, i think, but it seems that your daughter has had enough of it (contention) and wants some peace.
no matter how "normal" you think your household is, she may not see it that way and wants to take a different tack.
one more thing just popped into my mind.......are you still in counseling?......if so, talk to your therapist about this and see what he/she has to say about how YOU see this action taken buy your daughter may or may not reflect on you and your wife, personally.
good luck and HF's blessings for you.

[FairChild]

Would it be possible to see your grandchildren and daughter in an approved setting outside of your home? Perhaps having a person she approves of (such as a councelor or bishop) supervise the visitation. It would be a way of opening doors and allowing your grandchildren to interact and know their grandparents. If your daughter never sets her foot inside of your door again, how will she know if you have followed through and made real changes? The fact that they refuse to have anything in writing makes me wonder if it is their way of keep total control of the situation. Does your state have Grandparent's rights? If so, you may eventually chose to go to court to force visitation. I wish your entire family well.

[Generally_Me]

I read your OP and saw myself. I grew up in a contentious home. However after I left, things seemed to get better between my mom, my sibs, me. So after my daughter was born, my mother became a frequent sitter.
One night I was dropping my daughter off. I went into the house and heard my mother's voice, screaming at my little sister. Calling her wretched and hateful several names I can't type here. I walked out with my daughter and we changed our plans for the night.
Many months later, after another try (Mom apologized and acted truly penitent), my baby girl came home with a burn on her leg, like a curling iron burn. She hasn't been with my parents without me or my hubby since; over 2 years ago.
I don't know what your situation is. But I do know that we are commanded to make our homes like the celestial kingdom. If she feels that she needs to protect her children from you, there is probably a good reason (at least in her mind). Send cards, pictures, letters to the grandkids. Ask her if she'd be willing to send you pictures and letters, and if she'd be willing to visit herself a few times, without the kids. Maybe then she can see how yoou've all changed, or at least believe that you can keep the contention under control for visits.
Again, I don't know anything about your situation and am not saying it is as bad as my situation, but I can see where the daughter is coming from, and want to let you know some ways you can see your grandkids. Again, she is probably trying to make her home a heaven/haven, and doesn't want to invite the spirit she remembers from her childhood.
I hope that makes sense.

[grandpalw]

Thanks to all who have responded with heartfelt comments. My time was short when I posted the original thread and I need to clarify. We are welcome to visit in their home. They are now two hours away instead of 24 by car. The contention in our home is not the type where people are told they are bad and certainly NO physical abuse whatsoever. Will not happen, never.

The type of contention I refer to is just teenagers being stubborn not wanting to do what they're asked so wife or I will raise our voices until it is a shouting match, and even then not an uncontrolled anger shouting match but a raised voice mild anger rarely if ever top of the lungs shouting match. The put downs are like if my wife does something "unthinking" and I point it out in front of others. In 27 years of marriage, I will admit I have slipped and sworn, probably less than 10 times. Swearing is not tolerated. I am trying to be as honest as I can here. I have asked my other daughter who is married to a stake presidents son, and she says it is not much different when all of her husbands family gets together. Discussion gets loud and sometimes boistrous and her brother in laws don't always see eye to eye. I could understand if the situation was as some have described in their comments but I just don't see it that way at all.

I have offered to come to her home and attend counseling with her at LDS family services. I am hoping she looks into this. As an example of what she holds against me, one time as a teenager she was making a riduculous argument as teenagers are often wont to do, and I asked her in the vien of 'are you insane' I said to her " are you on drugs or something" never in the furthest reaches of my mind ever really meaning that, as I trusted her completely and without doubt, but she still to this day swears I accused her of doing drugs and holds that remark against me. This is why we are beside ourselves. Others in the church that know us would never feel our home is terrible atmosphere. I have had discussions with our Bishop regarding the contention and how to deal with it. It isn't that bad.

I think part of the problem is the only times my daughter has returned home were holidays and at those times we always try to have all the family there. My older children, all in there early twenties, still have some ill feeling towards one another and their presence together elevates tensions in the home. In a way it is a self fulfilling prophecy. She walks in expecting a problem and unkowingly helps create one. And then as we see contentions rising, I and my wife, not knowing how to ease them correctly, end up adding to the tension by joining in even if we really don't mean to. And again this is not where people are yelling at the top of their lungs, it is just well I'm right and your wrong, no I'm right and your wrong, no your being stupid about this type of thing. I really think if she would just visit our home without her older siblings there she would find it a much different atmosphere than she seems to recall.

Sorry, it is hard to describe an atmosphere like this but I had to try as it seemed some were thinking it is a situation of sever mental abuse or potentially physical and it isn't that at all. It's a situation where if she hit her sister out of anger I raise my voice telling her not to, and she is afraid if the grandchildren did something wrong like throw a baseball in the house I might raise my voice telling them to stop doing that. In her house they don't even raise their voice at all. If the three year old is hitting his newborn brother, they walk over and softly say, we want you to be gentle with him. I don't know what they would do if the 3 yr old was running toward a busy street, but I would probably yell at him to stop. That is the some of the type of yelling I am talking about here.

[grandpalw]

In response to Generally_me.... I would have done the exact same thing in your situation. I am sorry that that occured. It is unthinkable. If you read my clarification post, I hope you see that is not the situation in our home. Our grandchildren would be loved and 'spoiled' as granchildren should be. It would be a place of refuge, a place they would want to return to.

I know that our homes should be like the Celestial Kingdom. But I know of few or none that are. But I have never thought of ours as bad enough to restrict our grandchildren from. Our other older children, one being present when my wife was informed of this decision are beside themselves as well. They grew up in the same home and do not share in my oldest daughters feelings and have even expressed to her that they don't agree with her and don't understand why she is inflicting such pain on their mother. The one thing I have tried to make clear is that we, my wife and I, have never never tried to interfere with their parenting decisions. But in this case it affects us and I just don't understand the level she has taken this action to.

As for all those who will say, well at least go visit your grandchildren at thier home and be happy, I will. But we have to be honest, being the old people who show up for awhile will never be the same as spending time at your grandparents home, going fishing, going on vacation with your grandparents, seeking advice from grandparents. They have made it clear they will not allow us to be alone with them for fear we might raise our voices or say something to put their mother or someone else down which we would never do. I never wanted to be viewed the same as santa claus, some old dude who shows up with presents and goes to my little league game. I think they are robbing the grandchilren of a precious relationship.

[Misshalfway]

You know, its interesting how the things that happen when we are young shape us. It is even more interesting how some of us spend a great deal of time in adulthood trying to get over what happened way back when.

It sounds like to me that perhaps your daughter has some past pain that maybe she hasn't processed fully yet. Perhaps she hasn't learned the lessons of acceptance and forgiveness. It seems your older children haven't either. When she talks about the "i'm on drugs" comment, can you listen to how that conversation, no matter what really was said, made her feel? Can you open your heart to her pain and hear the feelings behind what she is holding over your head? My experience is that this kind of validation is especially healing and opens the door to re-evaluting things and for each of you to make apologies and healing statements. If all you do is posture yourself in defense and deny it ever happened, I would think things will continue as they are because that defense keeps the pain alive.

I wonder how a family counsel would go over. What would happen if you interviewed and counselled with all your children individually as you outlined the family dysfunctions and perhaps listened for feedback. Maybe you could present some solutions and ask for their support. Then you could all meet together and discuss it and talk about what isn't working, what behaviors are painful, and how you can move forward using better tools. It might be helpful to lay down ground rules before you begin, such as "no defensive comments or attackes allowed" or "everyone gets five minutes of uninterupted/undisputed time to share feelings". Teach everyone how to validate comments even if they disagree. Teach how to understand BEFORE you seek to be understood. Then you can prevent WWIII and move past time wasting conversation to words that heal and change things. It would also be important for you and your wife to be on the same humble page and for the two of you to show this example of support and centeredness. The second you get defensive or otherwise theatrical, the whole thing would fall apart.

I think it would be presumptuous to assume it wouldn't take some time for change to occur. I think your daughter needs to perhaps understand that as well. But it would be good to allow individuals to set the boundaries they need to in the mean time. Then maybe the family can move toward closure and better behaviors too.

Being honest about your dysfunction is a good thing. Being willing to change it good as well. Perhaps even speaking to a counsler about solutions would help too. I would think that maybe even your older kids may need an invite to settle some of their old issues.

I will end by saying that I don't know of a family that doesn't have conflict. I think sometimes we think that some families are "perfect". I think if you looked closer you might see all the feelings those people can't talk about or other subterraineous behaviors like passive agression, shame, and emotional control. Believe me, there is plenty of dysfunction to go around and none of us are immune no matter how many temple recommends are present. This doesn't mean families and the people in them aren't good. It just means we weren't raised with all the right tools to problem solve and manage emotions properly. There is a lot of room for understanding and mercy in families. Most of us are just doing the best we can.

[Generally_Me]

Grandpalw, I appreciate your clarification post. I didn't want to come across as accusing AT ALL, just wanted to explain where I was coming from as I did not know where you were coming from. Your clarification really did...clarify.
It sounds like she has a worthy goal. However unreal expectations. Also a son who may one day turn into a monster. Our Heavenly Father disciplines us, sometimes harshly, and we go through consequences that He has set, even if we say we are sorry. It will probably be the same in the Celestial Kingdom itself, our homes in this telestial world do not stand a chance to be 100% happy and quiet all the time. People aren't happy and quiet all the time.

I also think that, you should continue to pray, and visit as often as you can, that she can see you aren't "all that bad". Just wait until the kids start bringing home neighbor friends. If they are willing to do supervised visits, that would be fantastic; maybe a stake president or bishop they trust can show how certain actions are sometimes necessary. She is going to have a hard time as a parent in about 10 years if she doesn't develop real expectations.

[grandpalw]

Misshalfway...How I wish I were as elequent as you in stating an understanding of the issue. I believe you have hit the nail on the head. I have never had the proper tools for conflict resolution or emotional management. And it hurts me as I come to more fully realize what this has meant to my family in terms of their relationships. My wife and I both are stubborn, hardheadheaded to a fault. I am fighting back the tears as I try to comprehend as you suggested, my comment. I wish she would understand how much I hurt to know that I hurt her. But I never learned these tools as they were not present in my childhood home. How do I learn them now. How can I make her understand how much I love her. I have written her numerous letters expressing my love for her, how proud she makes us with her family.