Free Innocent FLDS Children Now!

[crytsprospect]

Freedom of religion is one thing but from what I've seen interviews with women and children who have escaped this religion is the religion crosses a line when they use God to justify physical and sexual abuse. That is not ok anytime

[Kamperfoelie]

As for brainwashing:
Religion does not involve brainwashing, Rosie. Not our religion, anyway.
Our God is a God of love. This is a truth that you are free to accept or reject. Even accepting this truth, you are free to act on it, or not. The consequences for your actions are your own, and a result of your OWN choices.
Nobody is or should be using psychological pressure of trickery to take away your God-given right to make up your own mind.

Again: when i pointed this out, take it in context with other failings of mainstream society: MTV, breastimplants, nosejobs, gang violence all dis-validate the claims of CPS that they have a better life on offer for these children.
That brainwashing is also wrong when done by church leaders (pure of intention or otherwise) remains unchanged, but that was not what i was saying.

As for attrocities of the far past:
People in general used to be illiterate, die at 40 and have no teeth after the age of 25... that things were a certain way in the past does not mean they have to be that way forever, or that we should follow by example.

[User-Removed]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

I don't buy the power thing. If anything, the man loses power in polygamy when his wives can gang up on him -- not to mention if their mother-in-laws join in.

Doesn't happen...Males in the Jeffs Cult control all facets of life...Think of the opening scene of the original Outer Limits...<vbg>

[rosie321]

Originally Posted by crytsprospect

Freedom of religion is one thing but from what I've seen interviews with women and children who have escaped this religion is the religion crosses a line when they use God to justify physical and sexual abuse. That is not ok anytime

True, but I have seen similar things said by anti mormons also who have escaped the "evil cult". Following this reason do you believe that the LDS faith should be done away with also?

This matter is not so simple for me as it appears to be for others.

[Fiannan]

When does it cross over the line from exercise of free religion into brainwashing? Who gets to be the judge and jury on this?

Marx would have said that all religion is brainwashing. So be careful how much power you want to give to the government to control religion as the controling parties may think your views are a result of brainwashing.

Religion itself involves "brainwashing" people of their natural tendancies onto some ideal. Why do some feel they have the right to take anothers ability to choose whose brainwashing is better than another?

True, that's a question that should be asked of the state of Texas as well as those who choose to support their actions.

If you are totally honest, you will see how the government and media actually try to brainwash people or create ideals that all must live up to. We know their actions are always correct-right?

Wow, spoken like a fundamentalist Mormon! Well, at least like a supporter of Noam Chomski or Pat Buchanan. If you are interested in how this all works go to VideoGoogle and view "Century of the Self". Best documentary ever made in my opinion.

Injustices have always been perpetrated in the name of religion. Take a look at the Old Testament. That was a brutal time of hostile takeover in the name of God. When the Isrealites were taking over cities I'm sure their actions weren't percieved by the people in the lands that the Isrealites were loving their neighbors. Or that they were protecting their freedom and free agency. Older men were with younger women. Women were treated as property. If one person died women were given to another. Polygamy did occur. As did many other things in the name of religion.

Some of this was mandated by scripture while some was cultural. Your point being?

[Fiannan]

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

Doesn't happen...Males in the Jeffs Cult control all facets of life...Think of the opening scene of the original Outer Limits...<vbg>

The US government thought the same thing of the LDS Church in the 19th. Century. They thought placing a military outpost filled with dashing single men would lure these poor women out of this horrible cult. Didn't have any effect whatsoever.

[Fiannan]

Nobody is or should be using psychological pressure of trickery to take away your God-given right to make up your own mind.

I absolutely agree! Problem is, American is one of the most controled societies (and easily led ones) in the world (some say it has to be since we don't have the option of shooting people for going against the government or the ruling class's desires for our lives). However, one should try to break away from this dominance through being aware of it and striving to maintain individuality as much as possible (actually, a Gospel message).

Aggain, watch "The Century of the Self" over at VideoGoogle and tell me what you think.

[User-Removed]

Originally Posted by rosie321

True, but I have seen similar things said by anti mormons also who have escaped the "evil cult". Following this reason do you believe that the LDS faith should be done away with also?

This matter is not so simple for me as it appears to be for others.

Your first question vis a vis Jeffs Cult vs LDS is rhetorical????

Second...Would you mind sharing what is so "complex" for you on this isssue...that others find so "simple"????


TIA

[User-Removed]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

The US government thought the same thing of the LDS Church in the 19th. Century. They thought placing a military outpost filled with dashing single men would lure these poor women out of this horrible cult. Didn't have any effect whatsoever.

Fiannan...Please explain this is greater detail...Since my ancestors were in that initial meeting on April 6, 1830...your historical reference doesn't quite match up with mine.

I'd be interested in discussing this further with you.

[rosie321]

To me its a slippery slope once we say we allow other people the freedom to do what they wish and then condemn them accordingly and try to usurp our views on another. We should not assume because a few are unhappy in that life that all are. Or that pulling them out and saving them.

Religion can be brainwashing in a manner of speaking. You are cleansing your mind and renewing it. Your will is being turned over to the Will of Heavenly Father -correct? People ride on every word that the church leaders speak.



I believe as you, that except for some rogue entities that arise within the church from time to time we are free to accept or reject. There is not a lot of pressure at this time on members. Although I'm sure there are many outside of our church who would disagree. For example: What happens if people are not faithful to the gospel? They can be excommunicated and lose the priviledge of living with their families in eternity with H.F. They could lose other blessings too. Part of being faithful is respecting the authority placed over us.

I can think of many groups who think that the LDS are being brainwashed and controlled. Look at the measures people have gone through, especially in the early church to destroy it. All with the intent of "saving" the members from a greater evil. I'm concerned about standing in judgement of another people who may be exercising their free agency to believe as they feel right. There have been such strong feelings expressed on this board against this group. I find it troubling. This whole matter appears to be started on the basis of a hoax and on the previous guilt of some members. Should this mean that all members should be removed everytime a leader does something bad? (there's another topic on this).

We are in full agreement that there are other crimes just as evil or more so. But these are not called out and is a failure.

I just hope that people consider the ramifications that going after this group may have.